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David Miscavige’s Qualifications

October 5, 2010

About a year ago, I wrote a post (Flies in the Anointment, September 2009) about David Miscavige’s qualifications – or, rather, his lack of qualifications – for the post he assumed as head of the Church of Scientology. Further information that has come to light makes it worth revisiting.

The earlier article pointed out that, despite the Church’s current official mythology, Miscavige was never appointed by Hubbard to succeed him. At the time, it appeared that the baton had been passed to Pat and Annie Broeker. Yet a year later, they disappeared, all issues mentioning them and copies of the LRH Memorial Event were destroyed, and Miscavige assumed power. And according to accounts of those who were there, he assumed power by force and bullying.

The article went on to point out that Miscavige had no administrative track record. He had never held a position in Scientology Management, had never run a Scientology Mission or Org, had never been in charge of a Continent, and had never even run any sort of a business. He was a high school dropout. He is not OEC trained, has never done the FEBC or Evaluator’s Course. He joined the Sea Org when he was 16. His record was unremarkable, including a failed mission, a stint as a cameraman on the Sea Org crew making the Tech films, and a period as CMO Action Chief, running mostly logistics missions.

And concerning his technical training in Scientology, I said that the Church was “quiet on this subject.” Now we find out why. According to a story posted in the comments section of Marty’s blog, and verified by Karen de la Carriere, who was there at the time, David Miscavige, while training on the Class IV Internship at Saint Hill, was observed leaving his auditing room in a rage, followed by his female PC, who was in tears. It seems he had struck her while in session. He was removed from the Class IV Internship for assault. He never finished that Internship. Thus his certs would have been provisional for that level of training, and would have expired in a year.

He apparently justified his criminal action by blaming it on the large quantity of steroids he was using at the time for the control of his asthma. Apparently oral steroids, or “oral systemic corticosteroids,” can have a potential side effect of “mood swings and psychotic episodes.”

Miscavige has apparently done no formal auditor training since this time. According to former insiders who were responsible for Miscavige’s study time, he not only has refused any kind of auditing for the last 15 years, he also refused to study with other students in the staff course room. He refuses to do official courses but prefers to just listen to random taped lectures.

This is the current head of the Church of Scientology: a man with no technical or administrative training or experience; a man whose track record in Scientology is unremarkable at best, shockingly criminal at worst; a man of violent temper who physically beats preclears, executives and staff; a man whose sole accomplishment seems to be his ability to bully, threaten and force his way to the top of the heap.

Why do Scientologists tolerate him?

Why are Scientologists afraid of him?

  1. Bert permalink
    October 5, 2010 4:11 am

    I recently heard a lecture on “Terror Management Theory”
    … that may help answer the question “Why do Scientologists tolerate him?”… and it’s probably not what you think from the name of the theory. It’s interesting because this theory is backed up by actual science, in that experiments have shown that behavior can be reliably predicted by specific stimuli. I’m eager to find out more about it because it can help us to understand why people cling to beliefs that are demonstrably false, and why there is often a violent reaction to those that challenge the beliefs.

    One thing I have concluded from my brief introduction to this theory, is that in order to move people away from their irrational and dangerous beliefs, you must offer them a bridge (no pun intended) to a life that has meaning and addresses their most basic fears. I think the ex-CoS community has done a tremendous service toward this end, and will continue to offer those trapped on the inside a meaningful alternative Scientology.

    • Aeolus permalink
      October 5, 2010 1:51 pm

      Bert, thanks for the link. For some time I’ve been pondering why it is that people on the political and religious right actually feel threatened if you don’t agree with them. It’s not enough to have the freedom to live the kind of life they choose. All is not well unless everyone around them makes the same choices. Terror Management offers an explanation for that phenomenon.

      Going back to Jeff’s topic, the word in some quarters is that David Misqualified is addicted not just to scotch but also to steroids, and has been for many years. It would explain a lot, like the unpredictable outbursts of rage, his deteriorating reasoning capacity, and the obsession with top-quality gym equipment.

      • Sinar permalink
        October 6, 2010 8:24 pm

        Really like your handle on Dear Leader. LRH used to call him Misq when he was a camera boy and it fits with your spelling.

  2. Jason permalink
    October 5, 2010 4:27 am

    That’s deep. It makes you wonder, “What kind of ‘religion’ can be taken over by a high school drop-out?”

    • Cool Observer permalink
      October 5, 2010 7:36 pm

      The kind of ‘religion’ that was founded by a college dropout?

      Qualification was never an issue, ruthlessness and greed for money and power were the necessary skills to become the new leader of this group. It’s really not that deep, it’s a structural problem that affects any system devoid of democracy and self-determined actions.

      • Valkov permalink
        October 7, 2010 6:18 am

        Do you look down on folks who didn’t finish college?

        How about science-fiction writers? Do you look down on them, too? Here check this out:

        Tom Anderson, co-founder of MySpace. A high school dropout.

        Woody Allen, screenwriter, actor, director, and producer. Was thrown out of New York University after one semester for poor grades. Also dropped out of City College of New York. As he admitted, “I was thrown out of college for cheating on the metaphysics final. I looked within the soul of the boy sitting next to me.”

        Paul Thomas Anderson, director of such movies as “Boogie Nights” and “Magnolia.” He attended film school at New York University but quit after two days because one professor dissed “Terminator 2” and another gave him a C for a writing assignment.

        Paul Allen, billionaire co-founder of Microsoft, founder of Xiant software, owner of Seattle Seahawks and Portland Trailblazers. Dropped out of Washington State to start up Microsoft with Bill Gates.

        Bill Gates, billionaire co-founder of Microsoft, one of the richest men in the world, philanthropist. Dropped out of Harvard after his second year. As he noted, “I realized the error of my ways and decided I could make do with a high school diploma.”

        There are many hundreds more listed here:

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 7, 2010 5:11 pm


        come on, we have our differences, but this was just a quip. Isn’t that obvious? I hope you don’t subscribe to LRH’s opinion that humour is rejection. Not every joke is degrading.

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 8, 2010 4:52 am

        Cool Observer

        You have obviously confused LRH’s connection between humor and the ability to reject something, with humor = rejection. This sort of confusion occurs when
        you only know ABOUT something but think you KNOW it. I am not agreeing with LRH’s definition of humor, only pointing out that you’ve got it wrong.

        Secondly, if your “quip” about someone being a high school drop-out was not
        meant to be disparaging, I am very surprised to hear it. It certainly sounds that way. Please do not retreat into the “I was only kidding” defense. It makes you look weak.

        If you believe that being a drop-out of any kind speaks poorly of someone’s character, say it and mean it. If you don’t think that, don’t say it.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 8, 2010 7:04 am


        I simply pointed out the connection between high school dropout and college dropout. It was a quick one liner referring to the earlier post. My response, apart from this one line, is about Miscavige. BTW, scorning Miscavige for not finishing high school never gets old, but if someone dares to point the finger at LRH…

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 8, 2010 6:14 pm

        Cool Observer

        I understand. But again, you assume you know something you don’t. I am not the least bit sensitive about LRH as I have nothing personally invested in his “rightness.”
        If you had bothered to read any of my posts with the idea of understanding where I ‘m coming from you’d know that.

  3. Karen#1 permalink
    October 5, 2010 4:47 am

    I sat at the 2001 New Years Event where David Miscavige announced to the enthralled audience ~~ “2001 saw us shooting down SPs like ‘ducks in a pond.’ ”

    (Suppressive Person (SP) : (Common definition) An evil person; someone who criticizes Scientology in any way) ( Also, someone who speaks out on the Internet !)

    I heard this and I gulped. Would the head of a Religion talk about “shooting down” anything ?
    DM was gloating and gleeful about ATTACK.
    The gleam was in his eye. The smug satisfaction of flaunting Power to DESTROY.

    Yes, Force,Violence and Overwhelm, DM stock-in-trade.
    Miscavige is a street thug. Force, Violence, Overwhelm by Force, Shouter Louder than anyone, Beat harder than anyone, Bully with more ferocity than anyone, Threaten louder than anyone, Pulverize them into shell-shock ~~~~these are the tools of his trade.

    There is many a Mafia Don or a Terrorist organization leader than came into power and took Top Dog position because of their willingness to be more VIOLENT than anyone else.

    Pablo Escobar was nothing more than common street thug. but he would one day become one of the richest men in the world and took on the Columbian Government that needed US intervention to bring him down. He got into power by being more brutal than anyone else.

    Al Capone was the most violent in the Chicago organized crime thugs.

    Saddam Hussein rose to Top Position in Iraq and around him they jailed, beaten, tortured or vilified with some unspeakable cruelty if they opposed.

    You get the point. The most violent THUG ascends to a power position.

    The appalling part of this story is how those still IN, drinking the Kool Aid do not see DM for what he is.


    Good News ! They have edited that on-line DM bio. They have nuked and deleted the section praising the auditing skills of David Taliban Miscavige. No mention of his auditing skills. ( no data on WHEN this was edited .)

    TRUTH will OUT on the Internet !


    May I express my sincere wish that the pc struck and assaulted by Miscavige surfaces and comes forward to tell her story on the WEB ?

  4. plainoldthetan permalink
    October 5, 2010 5:16 am

    Thank you Jeff for this illumination. I knew DM had little or no genuine Scientology-ness. I just didn’t know HOW little.

  5. October 5, 2010 6:56 am

    Well, I’m sorry to say, but the answer seems to be that Scientologists had been brought to that condition, in which they’d just obey even such a jerk, by standard KSW Scientology and mainly by its then use of the Admin and Ethics Tech.

  6. Genesis permalink
    October 5, 2010 7:23 am


    Wonderful article and very timely.

    I found a very interesting website recently that helped explain to me, why people who are caught up in Scientology, quickly become oblivious to obvious red flags.

    I will link that website in a moment, but first, I would like everyone to remember ……that we had “crammed down our throats” at the beginning of every course, that obnoxious KSW Hcob. In that piece of crap, we continually read (and were “tested” over) the following conflicting ideas, which I believe, started to shut us down analytically.

    Ideas such as: “never permit an “open-minded” approach.” or “turn that wandering doubt in he eye into a fixed, dedicated glare” or “Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists.” . How did these ideas relate to Hubbard’s quote ” “what’s true for you is true for you” ANSWER: THEY DIDN”T. Every f*cking class, we had to word clear KSW and pass a test on it, while we rarely read “what’s true for you is true for you”.

    Keep that KSW Hcob in mind, and how many times you had to read & recite it….. as you read the following, chilling narrative on mind control techniques:

    “During the Korean War, American and other United Nations prisoners of
    war were subjected to Communist “brainwashing”. One of the techniques
    that the brainwashers used was to demand that the prisoners all say
    whatever the guards and brainwashers wanted them to say, or else the
    whole group got nothing to eat. And they were always hungry, so the
    pressure to conform was great. So the prisoners recited:

    * Communism is wonderful.
    * America is terrible.
    * America only benefits the rich, while the poor blacks die for them
    in foreign places like Korea…
    * Communism is the wave of the future, and the most enlightened form
    of government…

    After enough repetition, some of the prisoners started to really believe
    it. Some even defected, and refused repatriation at the end of the war.
    And that is an extreme example of the use of cognitive dissonance.
    Soldiers are extremely reluctant to betray their own country, or their
    fellow soldiers, by committing treason and going over to the enemy. In
    comparison, it is much easier to get someone to believe that a new
    church is a very good thing. So the “new churches” ? cults ? insist that
    new members recite the cult’s dogma, a lot. And eventually the newcomers
    start saying, “Maybe there is something to this… Maybe they have a
    point… Maybe this is true.”

    How it works is: Since people don’t want to think of themselves as
    habitual liars, constantly saying things that are not true, they will
    start to imagine that what they have been reciting /really is true/.
    Problem solved. Now there is no conflict. Now there is no internal pain.
    Imagining that they are telling the truth is the subconscious mind’s
    answer to the problem. Now, instead of feeling pain, they feel noble,
    because they are doing great things, spreading new wisdom through the

    It’s really a very common brainwashing and mind-control technique:
    “Makem’ say it enough times, and they’ll start to believe it.”
    “Makem’ go through the motions enough times, and they’ll start to think
    that such behavior is normal.”

    Similarly, making people do funny or silly or immoral things can have
    the same effect. While at first the newcomers may feel uncomfortable
    doing strange things, they will eventually come to believe that such
    activities are perfectly normal and very spiritual, too. “All of the
    smart, enlightened people do this.” Thus the Hari Krishnas could come to
    believe that short-changing their donors and customers was “Holy,
    because it’s all God’s money anyway.” And the Children of God could
    believe that prostitution was okay, and even honorable, because it
    brought more money and male members into the cult. “This is true Freedom
    of the Spirit.”

    This really opened up my eyes to what the cult of scientology was doing. Here is the website:

    The above section is from “The Cult Test” questions 91 – 100.

    Examples of other “conflicting ideas” that shut you down mentally: if you were in the SO, how often did you hear “You can’t leave Scientology, you can’t survive out in the wog world.” Yet, the whole idea of doing scientology was to make you able to survive and clears are supposed to do it better than everybody out there. But nobody out there is clear and some of them are doing very well.

    Or how about – Disconnection from families/friends who are antagonistic to Scientology as per “Suppressive Acts” HCOB, or “Fair game” doctrine – these violate our First Amendment rights to Free Speech, and not to mention, are endorsing and encouraging violence against others.



    • October 5, 2010 5:25 pm

      to Genesis,

      Why do scientologists ignore obvious red flags,

      Well, here’s my 2 cents,

      Some of us do believe in Ot 3 drama rama, we remembered it. And we know sceintology is
      the road for us to freedom, meaning when you drop the body, you are fully aware as a spiritual being where you know where you are going and to us, that is important.

      As for the red flags, I saw red flags, but really what was I one person going to do?
      I could write kr’s all day long, people don’t do anything about kr’s, it’s just a writing exercise.

      I worked at Hanover, a mortgage company and the top money earners were sent to flag and sec checked by Shelly Miscavige, they all payed about $100k for that pleasure and this was back in 1989.

      I knew then it was off policy and out auditors code, blackmail.

      They were all on their ot levels, they complied. Why? Cause they didn’t want problems and wanted to go up their bridge to freedom.

      Back then there was no internet and where else on this planet were they going to go to get the information about exteriorization that was true? How to do it and keep it, you know stably?

      For us, that was important. If they didn’t comply there was gonna be problems, possibly the
      loss of access to this info and stopped at going free.

      This is the power that Miscavige had over the ot’s. You either listen and comply or you’re
      not going free. This was never said openly but implied. And that is suppressive.

      There was no reason to sec check public who worked at a private company. Goldfield the owner was going to take the top money earners to court for leaving his company and opening their own.

      The IRS shut down Hanover, not because they were scientologists but because Goldfield took the money that he was suppose pay for payroll taxes and spent it on himself. There was alot of out-ethics on Goldfield’s part.

      But David Miscavige just had to get involved didn’t he. All Goldfield had to do was get approval to take them to court. Goldfield lost in court. Then they declared Goldfield. He was a jerk, there was 2 filing cabinets full of KR’s on Stephen Goldfield, he screwed over alot of people both scientologists and non. But he was an opinion leader, going to washington and having $2000 plate dinners with the president etc.

      All the while we all stayed there and worked, closed loans. I was the loan processor. I broke records for his company. Both scientologists and non scientologists worked there, we went months without pay because we were a team and we loved what we did. We turned it around, Goldfield came back and then he systematically took everybody out. That was a sight to see. I left, he went after me, cause I made more than $2000 a month. Goldfield
      had a policy on the books that nobody that was on salary could ever make more than $2000 a month. I didn’t know this until the end. I had a personal agreement with Goldfield, that if I closed x amount of loans, I would get a bonus, a raise.
      He never honored his agreement but instead lowered my salary. That was suppressive.

      I left and went down my own path. But I didn’t leave scientology. For me, when I found scientology, I knew this was it for me, this was what I was looking for. I didn’t care about improving my life etc. I just wanted to have the ability to go exterior so that when I drop the bod I will know where I’m going and how to get there lol. Cause instead of effect.

      But that’s me.

  7. Soderqvist1 permalink
    October 5, 2010 9:12 am

    Soderqvist1: It is an interesting notation that a little dwarf with close to no Scientology rose to power and nowadays terrorizes all Scientologist below him, what do this say about the abilities below him? Or to put it another way; Scientologists believe that Man is basically good, and thus they increase the distance to the thing they have done overt against, Lo and behold! David Miscavige disprove this dictum with a vengeance, because he is guilty to the biggest overt there is namely to destroy the only bridge to total freedom, and as far as I can see, he doesn’t withhold himself from his position in CoS. I mean think about how little it takes for you, or ordinary Scientologists to end up in ethics? It seems that ruthlessness, not ethics is way to power. May I quote Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder?

    From a 1986 interview of Martin Samuels, former Mission Holder, and founder of the Delphian School, from the ‘Reflections’ chapter of the book, ‘L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?

    “Hubbard operated according to a couple of key patterns.

    “The first pattern involved basically decent well intentioned people… no one was able to rise in the organization to a point of any real proximity to him, without being attacked and vilified…

    “And of course the next person thinks he or she is immune. Of course, now Hubbard is dead, so we won’t see that pattern particularly repeated, except inasmuch as we’ll see the Church hierarchy emulate and carry that pattern forward.

    “The next pattern: It’s reap and rape. Hubbard would let the reins loose. He’d let people believe they really could get on with it… He’d let people believe they really could prosper to the full extent of their own ability, and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

    “And, with that kind of freedom, prosperity does occur, Inevitably, though, he’d come along and rape and pillage and rip off and take what had been produced. The most dramatic example of this was ’82, ’83, when he ‘raped’ his most decent people in management along with the mission holders, and looted the entire mission network.

    “And look at this pattern… He surrounded himself with absolute hooligans as ‘managers’; guys who beat the shit out of people. This man, who ‘is this OT, the author of Science of Survival, completely able to predict human behavior’, surrounded himself with ruthless people – like Miscavige – who got there because they emulated Hubbard’s savagery. They emulated his total willingness to completely break, use, and discard another person.

    “And then after their hands were so bloody – and the only reason their hands were bloody was that they were doing what Hubbard wanted – when it finally started to get to the point where it couldn’t be tolerated by people anymore, Hubbard wiped them out. Then he said. ‘My God! I didn’t know!’ Scapegoat. He even did that to his own wife, who went to jail in his place…

    “But the thing that’s amazing, and to me terrifying, is the characteristic of the mind, my mind, your mind, and apparently many other people’s minds, where I could buy this horseshit, where I could participate in it.”

    From the Declaration of Lawrence H. Brennan, 2008: “There was a real secret body of people directly run by Hubbard.”

  8. October 5, 2010 2:09 pm

    >Why do Scientologists tolerate him?

    Because that’s what they were taught to do by L. Ron Hubbard. Scientology trains its followers in blind obedience. Just as they are taught to ignore any “entheta” about DM as part of a “black PR” campaign.


  9. Cool Observer permalink
    October 5, 2010 5:58 pm

    Why do Scientologists tolerate Miscavige?

    They tolerate him, because Miscavige preserves the technology and singlehandedly orchestrates the exploisive expansion of the “church”. They know this because this is what they have been told. Blind obedience indeed. Truth is what we tell you to be true.

    Why are Scientologists afraid of Miscavige?

    They don’t fear him because Miscavige preserves the technology and singlehandedly orchestrates the exploisive expansion of the “church”. Only the few staff being exposed to his toxic personality fear him, but that is something to be tolerated since the fate of planet Earth is at stake.

    It’s hard to understand why so many people agonize about why it was possible for Miscavige to claw his way to the top. It’s simple. Hubbard was the supreme ruler and never shared his power. The delusion of some apologists that he installed checks and balances is ridiculous. When Hubbard died, he left a power vacuum, and when a man with the nature of a rabid pitbull made his power grab, there was nobody who dared to intervene, because everybody had been indoctrinated to believe that challenging authority was out-ehtics.

  10. Fidelio permalink
    October 5, 2010 6:33 pm

    Time and again there is no way to not see Hubbard as the “RTS”, the Real Trouble SOURCE.

    I am an OEC Graduate. Having studied “the whole thing” plus quite some additional Green and Blue on White plus SO issues plus FOs plus LRH Talks on tape, I could not find one single policy or reference on who is monitoring the head of the organization, on what are his qualifications, how he is corrected if necessary or how he is demoted in case of “down-stats”. No checks and balances when it comes to the very head.

    Hence a criminal punk like Miscavige, totally unchallenged from within over decades !! Even calibres like Marty with tech under their belt like very very very few could do nothing about it except just go.

    Without these blogs and the net (they were not in Hubbard’s equation) it could just go on like that, so to all those who provide these forums: eternal gratitude.

    The whole subject is nicely undoing itself from the inner. No outside “enemy” needed at all. Just another enslaving organized religion imploding, finally going along the path it deserves.


    • lunamoth permalink
      October 5, 2010 9:12 pm

      This is very interesting, Fidelio. While reading your comment I realized that LRH seems to have made no provisions for the continued well-being of his organization. None. No safeguards against the abuse of power from on high, no system for selecting a leader or providing a succession of any kind. There is no evidence that I can see (and none being put forth by anyone I’ve heard) that Hubbard had any care for the continued survival of his “church.”

      We have to assume that he knew he would die one day and that the church would need new leadership. Given his opinion that “man cannot be trusted with justice” and that justice is form
      of power, it would follow that Hubbard didn’t trust man with power, either. Much has been made of the fact that he left no instructions for the organization or for his followers, no “good-byes.” The official church position on this – well, there is none- it’s never addressed. But it has seemed logical to attribute this to his unexpected death, once one knows how LRH died, but in fact, by the time of his death LRH did not really seem to care about how or whether the church and the people in it survived.

      • Karen#1 permalink
        October 6, 2010 12:24 am

        Actually, Lunamoth, LRH did set up checks and balances. These have been burned to a rubble by a ROGUE THUG.

            In establishing CST, LRH set up three separate boards, with
        internal checks and balances.  The boards are: (1) Board of
        Trustees; (2) Board of General Directors; and (3) Board of Special
        Directors.  The special directors are named in the original bylaws
        but the general directors and trustees are not.  No where in the 1500 Church
        websites does it name the general directors and trustees. The websites are a PUFF Piece on DM.

        In any corporate entity, the Board of Directors can remove the Head Honcho for misconduct. DM, in order to maintain power has no actual Board of Directors anywhere that are actual functioning directors per the letter of the law.

        The Laws include ~~
        ii. That no part of the corporation inure to the benefit of any
        private individual, firm or corporation.

        iii. That the assets of the corporation are not subject to waste
        extravagance but are instead increased in value.

        iv. That proper Scientology management is correctly applied to the
        end that the purposes of the corporation are accomplished.

        Miscavige, in complete control of all the $$$$ and all the personnel
        with no checks and balances, no independent corporate boards, no oversight whatsoever. The sham “Boards” have pre-signed resignations.

        He does have $1000 an hour lawyers to cover up all his legal shenanigans.
        There are Lawyers in any country, any city, that will protect their client through loopholes and “boarderline ” unethical conduct as long as their are well oiled with revenues$$$$$

      • October 6, 2010 12:30 am

        to lunamoth, re: by the time of his death LRH did not really seem to care about how or whether the church and the people in it survived…..

        I believe you are 100% correct. I believe that when LRH dropped the bod, he was like screw it, i’m not responsible for the condition everybody is in, they are and he went off to play another game. He was tired of his 2d drama rama, the crap with his wife, his 1st son from his first marriage, the courts etc.

        He left instructions, a will and left all his money to his family to make sure their survival was handled and none of them would have to worry about earning a living. He made sure they were taken care of. His life’s work, he left it all to the church, copyrights etc.

        But as for picking a successor or anything of that nature, he simply didn’t want to be responsible for it, I mean alot people already made him responsible for their crap and he was tired of it.

        So, he said adios and he took off lol. He was done playing the game of scientology.

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 6, 2010 4:24 am

        Karen – thanks once again for informing the conversation with your extensive knowledge in the area. I was aware that there were separate boards set up, and that the CST and RTC existed for reasons of “checks and balances,” but what I still don’t know is, how aware was LRH of how effective these things were or were not being before his death? Was he aware that things were already going off the rails by the early 80’s, or was he so afraid of being found by the authorities that he allowed his
        comm line to everything he had once cared about to be hijacked by miscavige? It would appear so, and that would be a serious misapplication of the power formula, wouldn’t it?

        I likely will never know the answers to most of these questions. The LRH I thought I knew apparently never existed – but then I knew OF him and didn’t really know him. What I thought I knew was only an image or a persona that was promoted to me as a scientologist. I understand thought, that you did know him, and perhaps you feel more certain of how it all went down.

      • Fidelio permalink
        October 6, 2010 9:06 am


        thanks for the data on the three boards set up for CST.

        Did LRH set qualifications for the members of these boards (Case Level, Auditor training/Admin training plus Legal training/Financial training/Evaluator training, etc.) ?

        And do you know if he designed how Ethics Tech would be to apply mutually?

        I would not want to let LRH off the hook unless there is any evidence for security provisions. After all, see his extensive Sec Chec Tech – so he must have been deeply concerned about “SPs” and “PTSes”, so why not when it comes to the Head Honcho?


    • October 5, 2010 11:53 pm

      Exceptionally well said, Fidelio.


    • Karen#1 permalink
      October 6, 2010 7:05 am

      LUNAMOTH ~~

      Marty Rathbun is writing a book which will answer a lot of your excellent and probing questions.

      After all, one can only evaluate, based on KNOWN data, one cannot evaluate any scene fully and absolutely on UNKNOWN Data.

      I will tell you that answers you seek will more than be revealed. Please Email me dear.

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 6, 2010 4:35 pm

        Thanks, Karen. You’re right, of course, that no scene can be fully evaluated on unknown data. Unfortunately, the evaluation is only as good as the data, and that
        requires trusting the source of the data since I haven’t personally experienced much fo this myself.

        I have decided that I simply don’t need to come to a final eval. I am willing to have, and have even come to prefer having, my evaluation continue to change with the revelation of new information. That said, I doubt I will ever feel comfortable coming
        to a final, unchanging opinion on this matter, one that requires me to reject any new and conflicting data. It’s far more likely that I will lose interest before that happens.

      • Karen#1 permalink
        October 7, 2010 2:08 am


        You see, that is one of your virtues. You are willing to be flexible. You are willing to re-evaluate and you have no need to be FIXED in your opinion and viewpoint.

        The Church wants to install FIXIDITY in viewpoint. RIGID all or nothing in BELIEF on DM as the Messiah.

        Here’s a recent quote posted by Marty ~~

        And those security checks are done within an imposed mores that considers the highest crime one can commit is to question the infallibility of David Miscavige.
        Second, over those same thirty years church staff have been pressured and coerced into immediately, and ruthelessly, punishing anyone who might manifest the slightest doubt about the veracity of the utterances of Miscavige.
        Third, RTC has been programmed to immediately target and destroy the life of anyone who dares report on false reports delivered in events by Miscavige. Those are people who actually observed arrogantly announced Miscavige ”facts” to not in fact exist in the physical universe.
        Fourth, church policy has evolved that has any member seriously punished for exposing himself or herself to any source of information (by personal contact, by way of media, or the internet) that does not agree with Miscavige’s official state of Scientology utterances.

        End of Quote.

        It is a virtue to be willing to re-evaluate. The Church wants to install CONSISTENCY into the public. Problem is Life is NOT consistent, anything but.

        We all have our own journeys. Understood.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 7, 2010 6:14 pm

        To Karen:

        I guess you see me as one of the inflexible persons unwilling to re-evaluate, but I’d like to take this opportunity to showe you that this isn’t necessarily so.

        Until recently I used to think that Heber Jentzsch was an utterly despicable person, and when I read that he was basically a prisoner living in horrid conditions, my thoughts were: That’s exactly what he deserves.

        As a longterm executive I regarded him as part of criminal racket (at the time I used to think the entire management was living the high life while suppressing the members), but what really made me mad was a internet video. This was footage from a TV network in the wake of the Lisa McPherson “flap” (I’m sure that is how Miscavige sees it). I don’t have to go into the details of how she died, her handlers watche her deteriorate mantally and physically until it was too late. And here was Heber, doing more than just the usual spin. He got angry and shouted, he insisted that the handlers did everything intheir power to save Lisa. He called them heroes.

        I was disgusted. I couldn;t believe what I was seeing. Four more or less untrained people (the only person with real medical background did not have a license to practice anymore) kept a desperate woman locked in a room, ignored the decline and did not consider (were not allowed) to surrender her to the “medicos” or the “psychs”. She would still be alive if that had been arranged. It wos not even considerer – until it was too late – because L.Ron Hubbard had arrogantly claimed that some people who are PTS Type 3 cannot be kept alive. And Heber Jentzsch called the handlers heroes. That really did it for me.

        I know now that Miscavige is the only one who lives the highlife, but I didn’t change my mind on Heber, until I repeatedly read waht a kind, charismatic, funny, intelligent and caring person he is. I realize now that he must have been under enormous pressure to handle the media, that he was a victim and not a collaborator.

        I sincerely hope that his torment ends soon, and hopefully you will be reunited with your son as well. Regarding my opinion about people in Scientology, it’s inflexible on a mere two people, and that will not change. Maybe one day you will re-evalute one of those two people as well, but that is entirely up to you.
        Take care


      • October 7, 2010 7:48 pm

        to Cool Observer,

        RE: Lisa Mcpherson, they should have taken her out to the woods, let her chill out and audit her. She was repeatedly asking for an auditor.

        It’s on the pts/sp course, red on white, LRH talks about what you do when someone has a type 3 sit.

        Instead of doing this, David Miscavige allowed her to be locked up and monitored like a lab rat. In other words, he wanted to figure it out and was practicing psychiatry without a license.

        He also did the same to the guy on the freewinds that Mike Rinder wrote about, but he video taped that, yes there is a video tape of a guy committing suicide. He was upset and didn’t have enough sleep, what did they do, they induced his meltdown and locked him in a room and wouldn’t allow him to leave. He ended up committing suicide.

        This is not scientology, this is enforced control. It’s perverted, twisted and sick. I’m digusted just having to talk about it. And so would the founder LRH.

        The people within the church need to wake up and smell the coffee and stop protecting david miscavige and his crimes.

        And for those within the church that don’t think this is wrong or believe it is acceptable to lock someone in a room and video tape someone killing themselves, those people are insane and well, karma.

      • cool observer permalink
        October 7, 2010 11:51 pm


        who came up with the introspection rundown and what does it entail? Hubbard did, and it means isolation. And Hubbard DID claim that some Type 3s cannot be kept alive. He could not admit that his pseudo science might be less effective than real mental health care, so he rather approved the unnecessary death of a human being. If you want to know how those situations were handled under L. Ron Hubbard, google “Susan Meister”. She was desperate to leave the Apollo, Hubbard denied the request. A week later she killed herself. Some suspect she was murdered for some unknown reason.

      • October 8, 2010 1:04 am

        to cool observer:

        Don’t need to google Susan Meister, I had my own meltdown or type 3 sit. It was induced. In aug/sept 98, I had a bad dream and I thought someone was in my home, I was scared and I went to CC int where I was onlines and asked for help. I was out of present time and restimulated. The dream was heavy duty. For those of you that are scientologists, I was getting killed and implanted at the same time. It freaked me out, I could feel the implants going on me as they were chopping me up into bits.

        I was then sent home to be watched by my then fiancee, who beat me, 2 weeks before. He wouldn’t allow me to leave my home. I asked him to leave, he wouldn’t.

        He’s 6’3 and I’m 5’2. It got really really bad. It escalated in to a full blown meltdown.

        I was going in and out of consciousness. RTC brought in Maureen Bolstad, who video taped it. It wasn’t pretty and I was naked. But thank god for the police and my neighbors. My neighbors called the police and I got put into a psych hospital, 5150. I was released 48 hours later.

        But here’s the kicker, there was another sea org member in there. I was talking to the psychs and I told them I was a scientologist and he came out of his room and told me, he was too. His name was Bruce and he was a sea org member from ASHO.

        I never took pysch drugs, I’m anti drugs, but Bruce did, so I gave him a locational and told him to stop taking the drugs. He was very very scared in there and out of present time. So I helped him. He came into present time and was ok after that.

        When Dan Stradford came to pick me up from the psych hospital, I told him he was there and he said, we know, I’m here for you not him.

        So I can not speak about Susan Meister’s situation, as I was not there, but in my situation, all they needed to do was talk to me and give me a locational, but instead I got put into a full blown meltdown.

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 8, 2010 4:59 am


        Jesus, I cannot even begin to fathom what the hell they thought they were doing. What a royal goddamn mishandling. And VIDEOING you???

        Thank God you got away from them. I am no fan of psych institutions,
        believe me, but at least you were protected from the people who were “helping”
        you. How many people are going to have to go through this kind of thing before
        the criminals doing it are stopped?

      • October 8, 2010 6:58 am

        to lunamoth: i know. it was a dog’s breakfast so to speak. anyway, i was lucky, if it was not for the police, I believe I would have died, just like Lisa Mcpherson.

        these criminals aren’t going to stop, they think they are above the law and have the resources to break them and get away with it. this is who these people are, and the sooner one realizes this and confronts it, than you know what you are up against.

        but on the bright side, they can’t exteriorize, they are stuck to this rock for all of eternity lol. so knowing that, makes me feel good 🙂 my needle is floating lol.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 8, 2010 7:19 am


        I’m really sorry for what you had to go through, but I don’t understand your logic. I spoke about Lisa McPherson and how Hubbard policies played a big role in her death, so you responded that this was against policy per LRH. I’m not 100% sure this is what you said exactly, but you defended LRH.
        So in response to your post I pointed out that a similar situation unfolded on the Apollo, while Hubbard was on the ship. Your response? You don’t have to google Susan Meister (who died because Hubbard denied her request for leaving the Apollo), because you experienced a situation similar to Lisa McPherson, when Micavige was in charge. I was talking about Hubbard. No offence, but is this some good road/good weather response or are you unwilling or unable to confront the fact that something so horrible could happen under LRH?

      • October 8, 2010 5:55 pm

        to Cool Observer ,

        in regards to susan meister, i wasn’t there so i can not comment on it. i did not know her nor do i know all the facts, meaning i was not there to witness what occurred. i’m not defending anyone. i’m sure alot of horrible stuff happened under LRH, I wasn’t there for each and every one of them. there are alot of horrible things that happen in people’s lives, but this is life, life is not all roses and peaches.

        as far as hubbard’s policies go, you use the tech for each situation, based on what is called for. he had more than one policy on type 3 situations. there are numerous reason someone can have a meltdown, each has a different set of variables, a different set of circumstances. the tech is just tools to learn and apply. but not robotically, like if you use this policy it will work.

        you have to make a clear estimation of the events that are folding in front of your eyes in present time, you have to be on your toes and well spot on in your decision making process.

        life is not, if this happened or this, therefore = this.

        i’m not sure where you are going with this?

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 8, 2010 6:58 pm

        Cool Observer

        “No offence, but is this some good road/good weather response…”

        Again, Kathy Gold’s response was NOT a good road/good weather response. Anything BUT. I really doubt she dodged responding to your remark about LRH, either. Rather, can you see how this subject would bring up horrible memories, beyond which she might not be interested in commenting on a peripheral (for her) matter? The kind of experience Kathy had, once brought up again, demands to be addressed. She was addressing it. I hope it helped her to do so.

        I have no tech dictionary at hand, I got rid of all that stuff, but you do not seem to know the correct definition of that phrase, either :good roads/good weather. Were you a scientologist? I don’t know. But I am pointing this out to you because to those of us who have first hand experience with this you come across as not quite knowing what you’re talking about. If you don’t have any first-hand experience yourself, just acknowledge it and be who you are; a critic with no subjective reality on what you are criticizing. But please be aware that your lack of true understanding is apparent to those who are reading your remarks.

      • October 9, 2010 1:11 am

        to lunamoth,

        thanks you for duplicating me 🙂 you are 100% spot on 🙂

    • Karen#1 permalink
      October 7, 2010 4:32 am

      Fidelio ~~

      Although much of the qualifications of Board members have been kept under wraps, these qualifications have been found to very specific including a certain amount of training and case level.

      Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder were both Board members for some years.

      Some people choose to point to LRH over and over and over. Well LRH is dead and passed on. Attacking LRH does not do one iota of anything to remove the Criminal in Power. In fact it enhances his ability to reg megabucks from the public by inflaming them on how the “Internet SPs” attack LRH.

      We have 400 people in lock down at INT base with no ability to walk through the gates. They are essentially prisoners. Heber Jentzsch and others in SP Hole have been there some 6 years. My son Alexander Jentzsch sent me a couple of images of himself and Heber when Heber was trotted out to see him, the first time he was permitted to see his son in 6 years. (This was several months ago)

      Heber looked thin and gaunt and emaciated. You know how Mike Rinder looked before and after ? Heber had the “imprisoned on rice and beans” look. He is 75 years old.
      The reason I fight and blow the whistle on Miscavige is that this is going on in PRESENT TIME.

      You can fault LRH all you want. It will not matter one hill of beans into shining the light on Miscavige and his current PRESENT TIME CRIMES. Targeting LRH who has passed on does nothing towards removing a present time criminal who is very much alive.
      I am focused on current abuse. If you saw a picture of emaciated Heber, I think you would have more empathy for my viewpoint.

      • October 7, 2010 6:09 am

        karen, I would like to see a picture of heber, can you post it here? and what is being done to handle the situation up at int, are the police working on this, investigation perhaps? something. anything. i mean this is atrocious. have you made a police report? do you need to go to the press?

      • Fidelio permalink
        October 7, 2010 10:22 am


        I once met Heber in St. Hill during an IAS Event some 14 years ago (?). I was introduced to him by Kurt Weiland as being German and I was floored, overwhelmed and almost fell on my knees with admiration when Heber started to talk to me in fluent German!!

        I happened to sit next to him in the front row when I realized that he had fallen asleep and bent a bit as if he might fall from his chair. With my ellbow, I pushed him gently and I will never ever forget the sweet and thankfully smiling look at me, when he woke up. That moment will rest with me in all eternity!

        Believe it or not – there are NO words to describe my outrage knowing Heber in Miscavige’s concentration camp!

        But yes, let’s talk politics:

        The ONLY power that miserable punk Miscavige draws from is the power initially given to LRH by Scientologists who have gotten their wins through the application of the achievements of very MANY good people, LRH has himself drawn his power from by usurpating their results and dubbing himself the ONLY source of them and thus lying to and cheating on them continously, skillfully and adamantly.

        Had LRH been honest, authentic and just, there is no way for a mess like we are witnessing right now in PT.

        While I see your agenda, Karen, and while I even see the fort you are holding and why, in order to achieve the aim to unsaddle Miscavige, I take liberty of my periphere position to speak my mind about Hubbard bluntly.

        LRH is the corner stone of Miscavige’s power and given DM’s contempt for Hubbard, this is even more criminally absurd and anyway beyond words.

        I conceive going to the root of something very sick gives the biggest chances to get rid of the cancerous unfolding.

        I understand myself in the same boat with you, I just take advantage of my bigger personal distance to the turmoil. But believe me, I have Heber and his (and yours of course) son Alexander fully in mind and my pen name indicates that I have my own “Florestan” – just google Fidelio and its story line and you’ll get an idea.

        Karen, I admire you and your courage – I read all your War and Peace comments and always recognized you as key personnel to the common goal.

        Power to you, more power to you, even more power to you!


      • freespirit permalink
        October 7, 2010 4:28 pm

        Karen- PLEEASE post Heber’s photo. People need to see what he looked like before and how he has been physically abused by his imprisonment. I worked with Heber many years ago and helped to coordinate his release from the Spanish jails. One of our people who was imprisoned with him was a doctor who worked with us to ensure Heber received all the medical and other supplies, coat, gloves, warm clothes, food that he needed to keep him as comfortable as possible. That was over 20 years ago. My God – his living conditions in the hole don’t sound much better than Spanish prisons.

    • Paris in May permalink
      October 7, 2010 2:14 pm

      Wow, Kathy, I have had a similar thought, that LRH left us with Miscavige as a test. – Let’s see if they can handle this one. Let’s see just how bad it can get before they get up on their feet and start practicing the real technology.

      • October 7, 2010 8:31 pm

        to Paris in May:

        I think miscavige is more than a test, a real life example of what happens when ethics have been out for a long time.

        I really don’t want to see how bad it gets, to know what’s going on.

        How much worse does it have to get for people to wake up? More deaths, more lawsuits, more bad pr lol what?

        As far as them practicing the real tech, they never will, their ethics are out, tech will never go in. That’s how it works. The rest is reasonableness.
        Plain and simple.

      • Paris in May permalink
        October 8, 2010 9:54 am

        To Kathy,

        More than a test, yes, this I can see. I was thinking more of a test of you and me and all the others who cognited on the tech; will we be able to handle this situation? Will we keep the tech alive and pure? Who will stand up and protect LRH’s honor? See what I mean? Not a test of the Sea Org staff but a test of the Scientologists.

        If it is a test, then I feel a little intimidated by it.

      • October 8, 2010 6:03 pm

        to paris in may, ok i get what you’re saying. i really don’t know. i suggest you take a journey to find the answers you are seeking.

  11. bigawatts permalink
    October 5, 2010 7:05 pm

    Perhaps there is a very simple answer — Perhaps there is no one else who would or who wants to take on the position of THE staff member with the overall responsibility of the Church of Scientology and all its organizations. Maybe the position is just too overwhelming. Afterall, if the CofS didn’t make it, the head of the church would ultimately be considered responsible for its demise. Who wants to be in that position? Probably, the only person who can handle that is someone who really isn’t what would be considered a Scientologist and who doesn’t personnally care whether it survives or not. Someone who doesn’t have reality himself as a spiritual being and therefore has nothing to lose, but who saw from a MEST perspective all that he could gain. Perhaps David Miscavage is exactly that person.

  12. October 5, 2010 8:57 pm

    Now that is an explosive and revealing story, thanks for sharing!

  13. October 5, 2010 9:35 pm

    No wonder I have felt numerous times — what is this guy talking about, that’s so against aboutt 10 OEC issues, 3 FEBC Tapes. Forget that the the Esto tapes he may have thrown out the window. Wonder if he even knows they exist?

    I wish I had kept my earlier set of the OEC’s, sooo many changes were maid after 1986 when LRH died. While LRH was alive, there was an entire project to verify policies were actually written by LRH,
    other wise they came out as a different color, or green on white, but with the as assisted by……..
    Many aides and other Flag Bureaux staff as directed by LRH.

    I wonder how many regular people out in the world he has sat down and interested them in Scientology……n

    • lunamoth permalink
      October 5, 2010 10:53 pm

      That would be an interesting fact to add to dm’s resume – the real one. In addition to being a failed auditor, has he ever personally successfully disseminated scientology to any individual? Seems a
      fair question to ask, given that it’s one of the 4 or so cardinal points of being A Good Scientologist (bridge progress, auditing others, disseminating scientology and “contributions,” which has come to mean donating large sums of money).

  14. idle org permalink
    October 5, 2010 10:46 pm

    I admire DM’s ability to outsmart everyone, including LRH, for thirty full years now.

    Before giving me a tongue lashing for the above statement, I feel that quietly admiring how good he is at being bad is far more freeing than hating him, which gets you nowhere but upset.

    It also happens to be the exact is-ness of the situation. The little dude is very good at being bad. You might even say he’s upstat, only reversed.

    He has won. We have lost. And we have lost BIG. At least as far as our original postulate to have a thriving 3rd Dynamic, that is.

    Right now, things might be changing for him, as one would expect if they know anything about the tech of ethics.

    Too bad it had to take so long for his ethics to be exposed publicly. Too bad for every single day that goes by with him still in power. Or not yet in prison, for that matter.

    The only reason this awful DM era has occurred is because people cannot confront evil, and it sneaks up to quickly destroy them as a result.

    That lack of confront is what keeps people drinking koolaid currently.

    Let’s all keep going.

    • lunamoth permalink
      October 6, 2010 12:52 am

      idle org, come on – did you really think you were going to get a tongue lashing? LOL! I can admire what you’re pointing out here.

      And just for the record, while it may fly in the face of logic, I don’t personally feel like I’ve lost anything. Even I think that’s strange, but it’s how I feel now.


    • October 6, 2010 1:02 am

      Personally I don’t buy the generalities and homilies that pose as “answers” for the reason why people tolerate someone like Miscavige.

      Each has their own individual reason or “why”.

      To write or say otherwise is to foist the one size fits all “philosophy” that this squirrel tech posing as “Scientology” has become.

      • Jeff permalink*
        October 6, 2010 4:12 am

        RJ, I don’t see anyone trying to “foist” a “one size fits all” answer. I see people thinking and discussing and offering opinions. Do you have an opinion on the matter or are you just here to diss the opinions being offered?

      • October 6, 2010 8:53 pm


        No I am not here to diss anyone’s opinion in particular.

        No matter how idiotic it is or may seem to me 🙂

        (Just kidding!!!)

        Also while giving me a tongue lashing for dissing others opinion while saying I gave no opinion of my own.

        I’d like to refer you to what I stated succinctly and clearly in my earlier post which is my opinion:

        “Each has their own individual reason or “why”.”

        Which is my opinion but hasn’t been proven otherwise.

        Maybe I could have elucidated it more.

        As follows:

        You have your reason and I have mine why we both left the organization.

        Neither of us left for exactly the same reason.

        Nor do people stay for exactly the same reason.

        So to say that they all stay because of some concocted “Terror Management Theory” or that they have been “Brainwashed” is patently ridiculous and ludicrous pop psyche which fails to acknowledge individuals as individuals who are individually responsible for their own actions.


        Have I stated my opinion clearly enough?

  15. John Doe permalink
    October 6, 2010 3:39 am

    Why do scientologists tolerate him? Because it is easier to believe everything is okay, and that the church is expanding, and that all this good stuff is due to DM’s dynamic leadership, his amazing abilities, etc. To question him, his motives, or his actions requires more than a bit of confront, and personal integrity too, if one is true to one’s own observations that DM’s behavior is against what scientology is supposed to be.

    There is another factor: amongst scientologists, LRH is put on a high high pedestal, almost to the point of unthinking enthralled admiration, and that to feel this way about LRH is encouraged from one’s earliest experience with doing scientology. So, after LRH passed, the average scientologist WANTS an amazing person to lead the church, someone who is capable of carrying on in LRH’s footsteps, because the average scientologist believes themselves to be utterly incapable of performing in that arena of near-godliness. In other words, “I’m glad DM is doing it because I, and nobody I have ever known, could possibly be that capable second to LRH.”

    Why do scientologists fear him? I think it boils down to believing that one will lose one’s ability to have a good existence for eternity. This is an old, old, OLD control mechanism. See Heaven and Hell. Scientologists on staff in the SO who have seen DM’s abuses first hand rationally fear what he could do to THEM, on the slightest whim. Scientologists in the field do not necessarily fear him directly, they fear the idea that going out of agreement with him means going out of agreement with scientology, means losing one’s eternity.

    This is kind of how I see it, Jeff. I note, happily, that nearly all the scientologists, independent scientologists, or ex-scientologists who post here are no longer held captive by these ideas.

    • lunamoth permalink
      October 6, 2010 2:43 pm

      John Doe.

      Yup. Pretty much.

      Here’s the simplicity of it for me: Having found out about scientology and meeting a few scientologists, my trust was earned.

      That trust was betrayed.


  16. idle org permalink
    October 6, 2010 6:08 am


    You are actually quite right. There are probably many factors involved as to why people remain inside.

    Some are young and hopeful. Some are afraid of losing their eternity. Some are brand new and are loving the wins they get at the entry levels. Some have dear friends and family members they don’t want to lose. And so on.

    I guess my last comment above was referring more to the veterans with perhaps a bit of executive power or some such thing. I failed to clarify. People who are trained and have put in the years, but won’t look, fall into my category of not-confronting evil.

    It might be fair to say that hints of doubt have crossed the paths of most individuals still in by now. Said hints, or outright accusations, coming from either fence-sitters, indies or anti-LRH/SCN folks.

    I don’t think one could be in the church for long these days without brushing into a few folks who take opportunities to hit one with some hard truth, in greater or lesser degrees.

    Even receiving a random email from a mystery person, telling some hard truths about the church, can ignite a curiosity for somebody on the inside.

    It’s happening in my city, at least. There are plenty of indies causing plenty of “trouble” for execs, staff and public there. All of it legal, non-violent and truthful, with the intention of helping people to see the is-ness of what Scn has become.

    It’s the unwillingness to at least look that tells me the basic outpoint is fear. Fear of seeing something which might turn one against the church. Against DM.

    Fear of evil. Non-confront of evil…. Same thing.

    In my view, if people didn’t perceive some evil going on within the church, they would have no qualms about looking. For there would be nothing bad to find out.

    Looking would be relatively safe, even if it meant getting into a little ethics trouble for having done so.

    No, I think the deeper reason for not looking is simply not wanting to find out….. far more impinging than the mere threats not to look.

    I believe it’s the primary barrier amongst many.


    You’re correct. In many ways we are all in a better condition being out.

    I guess I just view it as a tremendous loss, not having the bad-ass 3rd Dynamic I had postulated twenty years ago.

    We were going to clear the planet and I actually believed it.

    But, more important than the past is the present and future.

    It’s wide open and we’re free!!!


    • lunamoth permalink
      October 6, 2010 2:52 pm

      Idle Org, I understand your loss. Clearing the planet would have been an awesome accomplishment.

    • October 6, 2010 11:00 pm


      I think the good ol’ lack of ability to confront evil has a lot to do with it.


      There are a myriad of other reasons as well.

      Some of them less laudable than others.

      Such as using the technology, especially ethics, to dominate others, escape domination themselves and make themselves right while making others wrong.

      To find out how this works.

      All you have to do is report of the corrupt and illegal practices of some “upstat” WISE member.

      In other words “Scientology” has become nothing but a protection racket for these people under the cover of religion.

      It works the same as well for Miscavige who uses the organization as cover for his illegal and corrupt actions.

      You could call this mutual criminality where each is mutually protected from their own overts or transgressions from being revealed.

      Much like the NYPD’s narcotics division in Serpico’s time.

      Have you ever looked at the questionable background of some of the Church’s biggest donors?

      Then there are those who are blatantly coerced into remaining in the Church because one or more of their family members is being held hostage by the Sea Org.

      Others who believe that the only road to spiritual freedom goes through the “Church” and that if they rock the boat or make waves that that route will be cut off.

      Call it spiritual extortion.

      Then there are those who are not aware enough to know any thing’s wrong.

      These are Dave’s chosen people.

      The one’s that are even stupider than he is.

      And that’s really stupid.

      Try complete and utter morons.

      Completely robotic individuals who do nothing but follow orders unquestioning.

  17. Soderqvist1 permalink
    October 6, 2010 7:15 am

    Karen#1: Actually, Lunamoth, LRH did set up checks and balances. These have been burned to a rubble by a ROGUE THUG. In establishing CST, LRH set up three separate boards, with internal checks and balances. The boards are: (1) Board of
    Trustees; (2) Board of General Directors; and (3) Board of Special Directors. The special directors are named in the original bylaws but the general directors and trustees are not.

    Soderqvist1: this is only an acceptable truth which Hubbard through Miscavige told the IRS. L. Ron Hubbard was a dictator not a democrat. This is a tidbit from Larry’s post!

    Larry Brennan
    CST was incorporated separately from RTC and so on the surface is a separate, legal corporation. Keep in mind that it was incorporated and legally established by the same people who brought you RTC, CSI and the rest of the corporate structure.
    In other words it was established, like the rest of corporate scientology, to be part of the legal structure to hide the assets and hide those really in control. CST is a piece of the puzzle, not a separate puzzle.

    The “special directors” of CST (those attorneys so many people keep speculating about) were just attorneys we paid big bucks to help us work out the corporate structure. As per the CST bylaws they had no real power and could be overruled or removed by the regular directors who had to be practicing scientologists in good standing with the “mother church” which of course is CSI as controlled by RTC.
    The control of CST goes back to RTC (Miscavige)

    Even most top staff (such as they may be now) don’t really understand the whole corporate picture. For example, Marty Rathbun who worked right under Miscavige did not know a lot about the reasons behind the corporate structures. Or even Mike Rinder who was posted over OSA after my time does not know the real reasons behind much of the corporate structure. They are/were told what to think and defend by Miscavige. I taught Miscavige. He used the corporate shield and the religious cloaking I helped build to abuse, to destroy others, to profit himself and to commit crimes, none of which were intended, certainly by myself. I am doing my best to undo what has been done with my ill advised help.

  18. Soderqvist1 permalink
    October 6, 2010 8:33 am

    Karen#1:But as for picking a successor or anything of that nature, he simply didn’t want to be responsible for it, I mean a lot people already made him responsible for their crap and he was tired of it.

    Soderqvist1: What you have said doesn’t fit in with the Coroner’s report!
    The documentation tells the story that Hubbard was mentally unstable and removed from power by Miscavige approximately1984, and was under care by his medical doctor Scientologist Gene Denk.

    The Scientology Time-Track 1985
    Miscavige and Jesse Prince are pals at this time and DM confides to Jesse that they did not want LRH appearing in court. DM tells Jesse there’s some things about LRH you just don’t know and you have got to grow up and know something, that LRH is mentally unstable.

    Also, Rick Aznaran was up at Creston once and he told Jesse that he could hear Ron screaming at thetans late at night when he was there. The servants were also aware of this. Vaughn Young affidavit Jesse Prince tape # 3

    Jesse Prince
    L. Ron Hubbard felt like he was just pushed out of the picture, not that
    he shouldn’t have been, because he was pretty damn crazy, and I’m not
    justifying one way or the other, but that was the struggle with the
    brokers and L. Ron Hubbard. David Miscavige I believe, just forced L.
    Ron out of existence.

    L: He was just taking control away from Hubbard a little piece at a time

    while he was alive?

    J: Yeah, and L. Ron Hubbard saw it. I had to sec-check David Miscavige
    on this. L. Ron Hubbard asked me, “Please find out what is his
    intention, what is he doing by making it so I can’t even sent a dispatch
    or order anyone to do anything that I normally do.”

    Complete Coroner’s Report
    GENERAL DESCRIPTION: The body of a tall white male said to have been in his 70’s. The body shows abundant reddish-white facial hair and eyebrows of reddish-white color. Scalp hair is long, thinning, receding at the forehead and of greyish-white color Reddish-white body hair is present on the surface. Fingernails are long, unkempt. Nail beds are of bluish-red discoloration. Toenails are long, unkempt and there is bluish red cyanosis present. The back is covered by livores. There is a bandaide affixed to the right gluteal area where 10 recent needle marks are recognized of 5-8 cm.

    Dr. Denk reported that he had been residing at the ranch and treating the
    decedent for the past two years. He described the decedent as having displayed signs of Dysphraisia for about eight days. MY immediate reaction to this information was whether decedent was in sound mind at the time he signed the Will as Dr. Denk had told me of decedent’s clinical history which supported a possible neurological problem. Writer explained to Dr Denk what was transpiring in this investigation and why Dr Denk stated that he had no objection to the performing of toxicology studies He reported that the only medication he had given the decedent was Vistaril and vitamin B-12.

    Vistaril is a ‘psych drug’? by Senior Psychiatrist Ulf Brettstam
    Hydroxyzine [Atarax] is still used in psychiatry today, despite the fact that we have a whole lot of new and more specified pharmacological substances then collegues had back in 1957 when this drug was approved by the FDA.

    Soderqvist1: the patient has been unable to take care of himself for some time!

    • Sinar permalink
      October 6, 2010 8:46 pm

      …”Rick Aznaran was up at Creston once and he told Jesse that he could hear Ron screaming at thetans late at night when he was there. The servants were also aware of this. Vaughn Young affidavit”…

      This never happened and there is a falsehood somewhere. I met up with Rick in San Bernadino the evening LRH passed. Along with two others we drove up to Creston in the night in LRH’s Winnebago motorhome and another which had been in storage and arrived very early morning at the Creston ranch, after LRH was gone. Rick had never been there before and was brought up to handle Security matters. Not aware of any “servants” there.

  19. CueBall permalink
    October 6, 2010 8:57 am

    >> Why do Scientologists tolerate him? Why are Scientologists afraid of him?

    Most scientologists don’t know the “real David Miscavige”, or in a state of denial when they hear “entheta” about him. I think the only ones who tolerate him are those at the top of the organization since they have to deal with his craziness. I think they rationalize a lot of the craziness they see. They probably tolerate him for the reasons most people don’t leave cults even when they know something is wrong. They’ll never their friends and family, they have limited money resources and limited marketable job skills, they’re told the outside world is evil and that they’ll die a horrible death, they’ll never go free, etc. Or so they think.

  20. Fidelio permalink
    October 6, 2010 9:41 am

    Why do Scientologists tolerate him? Why are they afraid of him?

    Well, because they are very subtly and thus increasingly deeply disabused to say NO to anything inside the beliefsystem and organizational system of SCN no matter how big the cognitive dissonance. But DM has the power to say NO to you since his power is completely unchecked and unbalanced.

    After all Doubt is a “lower condition”, isn’t it?!! And if you come up with a “Yes” after going through the formula (since you do not want to put your eternity at stake by saying NO !!) you of course make a “Liability” with considerable amends outperforming the normal duties of a member in good standing and depend of the grace of others to get into the fold again. That is painful. That clings.

    Heck, Doubt is NOT a lower condition!! Doubt is the motor behind progress, behind technical and personal advance, behind growing up, behind waking up and rising towards higher awareness. Lower condition?? Gimme a break. To diffamate Doubt as a “lower condition” is a very effective blow to any possibility to say NO, not only when it comes to the inner workings of SCN.

    And thus there goes one essential basic to any true freedom.
    The consequences are ………. well, they can be seen.


    • lunamoth permalink
      October 6, 2010 4:49 pm

      Fidelio, I think you’ve hit on something very important: by sabotaging the conditions, specifically by making it impossible to fully and correctly (and honestly) apply the condition of Doubt, the only correct and acceptable means of leaving the church was destroyed.

      Through secrecy and lies, false data (in the form of false stats and false reports about expansion) and ommitted data (the real stats not reported), dm’s management has made it impossible for any non-management member of the church to discover the true products and statistics of the group. And by making it a crime to search the internet and other outside sources for “unbiased” information,
      it is made impossible to inform oneself honestly of those products and statistics.

      This observation has been made before, but for the first time I realize that this, the application of the Doubt Formula, is the ONLY way out that would be accepted and respected by those inside the church, and it has purposefully been made impossible to apply that correctly.

      • Valkov permalink
        October 7, 2010 12:38 am

        Right on. “Doubt” is a very important condition. I now think of it as the “To BE, or Not To BE” formula.

        It is a condition one needs to use frequently as one becomes aware of new information which might require a re-evaluation of one’s relationship with some person, group,or activity.

        So it is also the “Ought I Continue To BE, or ought I NOT Continue To BE…..X or Y”.

        The thing is, when I first learned about the Conditions Formulas, I thought it was for use when I was seriously undecided about a decision or course of action. I thought “Well, I’ll do a Doubt Formula and that will be it – all my problems about that will be solved, I’ll know whether I ought to be a Demican or a Republicrat and I won’t ever have to think about it again.” WRONG!

        Life isn’t like that. Existence is flux, it is motion, it never stays the same. Buddhists say “You can never step in the same river twice.” LRH said something very similar, he said “The universe changes from hour to hour. It doesn’t stay the same.”

        So a person needs to re-evaluate the river he is standing in frequently. It can and does change, slowly or rapidly. It can get polluted, it can get poisoned, it can turn dangerous by an infestation of parasites, whatever.

        If one does a Doubt Formula and decides to live in this river over that river, and then doesn’t keep his eyes open towards the need to re-evaluate, one does so at his own peril.

      • Paris in May permalink
        October 7, 2010 5:32 pm

        Thanks for this about Doubt. Of course, and I remember exactly how it was in the S.O. The doubt formula was vital, Good stats was never neglected. I can see now what most staff are facing when doing the formula, Jesus!

    • Cool Observer permalink
      October 6, 2010 5:46 pm

      Exactly! It’s no coincidence that many protesters remind active Scientologists that “Doubt is not a crime” and “your doubts are valid”. Sadly Scientology has never been about expanding one’s knowledge, intelligence, awareness or perception, the goal has always been to narrow any thought, intention and act to one single purpose: Clear the planet, and do it exactly a it has been prescribed by L. Ron Hubbard.
      In an environment where independent thought, discussion and individual input is not acceptible, doubt is dangerous because it triggers the aforementioned acts.

      Hubbard made it clear that he was the source. He insisted that only by following his discoveries to the letter could man escape the trap. He demanded a fixed, dedicate glare and disabused anyone of an open-minded approach. And this was exactly what he achieved: A group of fervent (if well-intentioned) believers, where discourse, dissent and doubt was not valued but rejected.

      Here are a few hints on how this was accomplished:
      Sanity only exists within Scientology, everything “wog” is inferior. We don’t have much time to rescue this planet, so we must be focused and cannot waste one minute to evaluate the tech or our actions. Having doubts means having overts. “Entheta” is everything that might provoke thinking/questions (even if it’s true). Every case is extremely fragile, so entheta causes regress, this damage must be repaired and it costs time and money to do so. If you have doubts, do not discuss it with others, this is natter or black PR and will result in ethics handling. If you hear someone do it, write a KR or tell your EO immediately. If wogs try to slip you “lies and bad news”, you have to handle or disconnect. Do not listen to the wog media, because they all are part of a big conspiracy against Scientology – it’s all lies anyway. We always wanty to hear your wins, we can’t get enough of those. The wog world is dangerous and crawling with hidden SPs and PTS persons. The orgs are safe, they’re islands of sanity. If some Scientologist doesn’t have any wins or seems miserable, he’s PTS or has withholds. If the org messes up, it was caused by an SP who infiltrated the organisation. And why didn’t you use your knowledge to stop him before he started “chopping up people” and bringing chaos and confusion?

      This is an environment that allows consent and blind obedience only, where people are tought to blame themselves for anything that doesn’t go according to plan, because the basic stipulation is that the tech is perfect and the cause just and an absolute necessity to safe the planet. Doubt cannot be tolerated.
      To make the system foolproof, there are a few more perks that are hideously cunning and manipulative in the extreme. If confronted with entheta, Scientologists literally shut down, this is what they learned during the TRs (Bullbaiting). Scientology has always been about repetition. KSW has to be read and reread countless times, and it becomes the truth. If one looks at the definition of the Anti-Social person, it beomes clear that it’s virtually impossible to confront a Scientologist with unwanted information without triggering the “SP-flag”. The orgs are shrinking? Your talking in generalities! (You’re an SP). If Scientologists think that “critical thought” is something valuable, they have to word-clear it to learn that it’s criminal. “Individuation” is nothing positive, per Hubbard decree it was morphed into a process of alienating oneself from others. And Scientologists do not display Human Emotions and Reactions, that would mean they’re not at cause. You’re only at cause if you toe the party line. Oh the irony.

      Scientology has alway been controlling and manipulating, promoting a hive mind by pressuring people into group think, and it has become even more Orwellian under David Miscavige. Why would they rebel against the leder? They don’t even know the meaning of the term “dissent”.

      • Valkov permalink
        October 7, 2010 12:08 am

        Jeff, sorry if this seems a little harsh, but it is how I feel about some of the posts I read [Valkov, I edited slightly, hope you don’t mind]:

        Cool Observer posted: “Sadly Scientology has never been about expanding one’s knowledge, intelligence, awareness or perception…..”

        And you know this, no doubt, because you took some books and lectures, studied them with a twin to learn how to apply them, did your drills then audited some, gave assists to injured people and in general actually tried it out to see if it was effective when applied as per the instructions?

        You know it can all be tested without ever setting foot in a Church, right? You know that in the 1950s that is exactly what people did – they read the book and applied it, at home or wherever? And continued to do it because they tested it and found it helpful and workable, long before any “church” organizations were setup around it?

        No offense intended except where it is really due, but if you haven’t done any of the above, unless you’ve actually “been there, done that”, I think at the very least, you need to sit quietly around the campfire and listen for a good long time, to people who have been there.

        Your post puts me in mind of Marty’s last blog, which led to a nice discussion of the perils of seeking “certainty” as a state of being, and of a big barrier to learning – thinking you already know something. Wearing a T-shirt that proclaims “I’m Sure!” is not the same as actually knowing something because you’ve earned the certainty that you “can do” because you’ve learned to do it by your own elbow-grease. The T-shirt is only pretended certainty, pretended knowingness.

        On the other hand, if your posts are based on your own hard-won experience of sincerely studying and trying to apply the “tech” of Scientology for some time, then I apologize. I would be somewhat more receptive to an evaluation that you “doxed” by your own experience.

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 7, 2010 1:14 am

        Valkov – Exactly.


      • Valkov permalink
        October 7, 2010 5:52 am

        OK Jeff, but you took all the vinegar out and made me seem a lot nicer than I really am! 🙂

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 7, 2010 10:21 am


        This turned out to be a long post, but I hope you will read it anyway. I read yours and it seems that we all missed out on some juicy terms. So be it. Here’s my response, no personal attack intended even if you may see it that way.

        Why do I dare to comment on something, when I have almost no personal experience? I have never lived under communist rule, but I still see this as a tyranical and soul-destroying system. Communism has caused a lot more carnage than national socialism, most likely because it has always been an ideological wolf in sheep’s clothing. Communism preached equality as a way to global piece, and many idealists adopted it, even in the west. Lenin called them “useful idiots”. There are still people who believe in communism, and they explain away all the atrocities by saying that it has always been misapplied. Does that ring any bells?

        Lenin was the first to introduce the ideas of Marx and Engels, and the apologists insist that he was a saint and Stalin corrupted everything. If you look at the thesis of communism, it makes a lot of sense. If you look closer, you see the fatal flaws that make it unworkable: Since it tries to take everyone’s individuality, it will always degenerate into terror and totalitarianism. People who still adhere to the vision of Marx and Engels, who still believe the propaganda making Lenin into a saint (he was a cold-blooded tyrant who stopped democracy and had at least 10m killed), they might ask me: How can you judge something you’ve never experienced? Why don’t you read “Das Kapital”, Mao’s littel red book, the many dissertations etc to know what communism is REALLY about?

        Then I would answer: I don’t have to, I just look at the facts.

        I know that you think Hubbard was brilliant and the greatest friend mankind ever had, or maybe you concede that he was ‘flawed’ because he was only human after all (didn’t Hubbard say he was not from this planet?), and you insist that it was his intention to free others. IMO, the facts do not supprt this. I’m not saying that you’re delusional, and I’m sure you have met and/or worked with many wonderful people, because Scientology specifically attracts (targets?) well-intentioned people who want to help others. But you tend to emphasize Hubbard’s good side (provided he had a genuinely good side) and deny or make light of his dark side.

        There is a reason why Hubbard, Dianetics and Scientology has always been scrutinized and criticised (it wasn’t the govenment trying to steal the oh so powerful “tech” from Hubbard to achieve world domination), there is a reason why Scientology has always attacked and never discussed allegations, admitted any wrongdoings or apologized for anything (apart from Operation Snow White and Freak Out, when the evidence was overwhelming, and I doubt a honest apology was ever offered), there’s a reason why Hubbard spent his last 20 years running from the authorities all over the world, and there’s a reason why many independant Scientologists eventually become Ex-Scientologists.

        My post above may be aggravating to you, but I don’t think it’s packed with lies. Those are facts, it only depends on how one interprets them. L. Ron Hubbard made Scientology into an organisation that did not sanction any dialog with dissidents or critics, the preferred means were Fair Game and excessive litigation. Never defend, always attack. In a blogpost Steve Hall explains that this was necessary, an act of self-defence. I disagree strongly, I actually believe that this is a dangerous route to go down. The belief that “the end justifies the means” has caused the death of too many innocent people.

        When Hubbard was a member of the explorer’s club, he told yarn like everybody else. One member jokingly observed that Hubbard must be in his 80s, after he (the joker/degrader) had added all the years Hubbard had allegedly spent in various places. The joke was good-natured, most of the stories (from everyone) were taken with at least a pinch of salt. Hubbard was furious that someone doubted him. Is it really surprising that Hubbard later became a pathological liar when talking about his past achievements?

        In 1940 Hubbard had an altercation with a steward at the Knickerbocker hotel, so he wrote a letter to FBI and claimed that said person was a Nazi Spy. They had a disagreement, so Hubbard tried to have this person destroyed. Is it really surprising that Hubbard started a personal vendetta against a cartoonist who had dared to imply that Scientology is about making money? (Google Operation Funnybone)

        Hubbard slandered may people as communists and tried to have them arrested, including his wife, because he perceived them as “enemies”. Is it any surprise that he came up with the fair gme doctrine?

        If Scientology is (or was) about freeing the mind and spirit, thinking for yourself, increasing your capacity to know and understand, becoming more aware, more perceptive and more rational…why did Hubbard change the definition of “Critical Thought” and turned it into something negative, even criminal? Don’t tell me it was a lapse of judgement. If Hubbard really was the deep thinker and philosopher, he must have been aware that critical thought (personal evaluation) is the most esential and irreplacable tool to achieve the aforementioned goals. Hubbard did this on purpose, that would mean it was well-planned and cold-blooded, or he was driven to do it. That would mean he had serious issues. Just to make one thing clear: Hubbard’s character does not hinge on this question, it is one of the clearest examples what Hubbard really was all about.

        People should not be judged by the words they speak, but by the things they do. Hubbard may have written sentences that make Christ look bad in comparison, but he ordered the detructiuon of people who dared to disagree or criticise. For me that is pretty compelling evidence that he didn’t really mean the uplifing things, he wrote them to soothe suspicious governments and law enforcement agencies, and to attract follower who could identify with these tenets.

        The interesting thing is this: All the former scientologists who don’t let go completely and continue to “worship” Hubbard do not value critical thought, they still associate dissent and criticism with entheta or black PR. Do you think my comments would be allowed on Marty Rathbun’s blog? I don’t think so. There’s no free speech there. It’s his right to censor posts on his own blog, but it shows clearly that he does not condone critical thought (unless it’s about DM). He even advises his readers to stay away from “natter boards” like ESMB. God forbid that someone might have a cognition that could change the view of LRH.

        This is not democracy (a system that Hubbard despised), it is propaganda. One view is offered, and any dissent is censored ( or allowed once in a while to rile up the supporters).
        Unlike marty, Jeff is an ex-Scientologist, and he allows critical discourse (provided posts are not abusive etc.) This is such a fundamental difference in terms of free speech, how can anybody NOT see it?

        Anyway, if you read this, I thank you for your patience. Have a good day.


      • Valkov permalink
        October 7, 2010 9:30 pm

        You read about the elephant, then made your evaluations of it, without ever having seen an elephant for yourself, much less having done any walking around it. Yours is all second-hand “perception”. That is why I disrespect your posts. You are too sure you’re right, without ever having “been there, done that”. Even though you are right about some things.

        That is what I am attacking. I see your result as preventing others from seeing for themselves and making up their own minds.

        I see you as no different than a doctrinaire Scientologist who prevents a person in trouble from going to talk with a psychologist, by generalizing psychology as “evil” or “suppressive”. You have already prevented yourself from seeing for yourself, by convincing yourself you already know.

        I attack you on this blog because I have almost limitless respect for Jeff. Why? He has been there, done that. Decades of immense contribution from him, to Scientology, in the organization, in the trenches. He’s walked the walk. You haven’t. I respect Jeff’s opinions, because they are based on realities he directly perceived.

        I see this blog as a place for people with experience in Scientology to talk and discuss based on their actual realities. I see Marty’s blog the same way.

        I don’t see it as a place for armchair analysts, no matter how bright, to come and opinionate based on second hand data. Those kind of opinion” will always be half-valid to me at best. But it’s Jeff’s blog, and if he wants to allow it, it’s his call.

        You can go into any bar, opinions are a dime a dozen. Any drunk can tell you that Obama’s ruining the country, or that Bush already did. Perhaps I shouldn’t find their certainty about it irritating. But I do. Oh, well.

        It is fallacious to judge a man’s creations by his character, to say “His music(painting, philosophy, scientific research etc etc) can’t be any good, because he’s personally an asshole”.

        Some psychiatrists have said that there’s a fine line between genius and madness. That great creativity can go hand in hand with madness.

        If Beethoven or Bach were unstable jerks, does that invalidate their compositions? No. Same for any other historical great in any field, from philosophy to physics.

        It’s logical fallacy to think that way. The organizational behavior of LRH, and his applied philosophy or whatever you want to call it, are two different realms, with two different objectives. No matter how badly the organization turned out, or why (and that is being studied as we speak), the applied philosophy stands on it’s own merits.

        If you don’t actually get where I’m coming from by now, re-read my posts. I’m done going on at length about it. It’s not about disagreement. It’s about relative validity of knowledge.

      • Jeff permalink*
        October 8, 2010 12:44 am

        Just a couple of c0mments on your comment:

        First, I don’t see any need to “attack” another poster to “protect” others that visit here. The people who read this blog are more than capable of sorting things out for themselves and coming to their own conclusion. They don’t need anyone to intercede on their behalf.

        You say “It is fallacious to judge a man’s creations by his character.” Sure, that might be true. Except if that man’s creation is a technology that supposedly makes people sane and rational. Then any lack of sanity or rationality is very much to the point.

      • Valkov permalink
        October 8, 2010 1:32 am

        I get you Jeff, and I agree up to a point. That point is that any creation needs to be judged on it’s own merits. Anything else is a pre-judgement. That can interfere with unobstructed looking and seeing.

        I was never on staff , I never went up the Bridge. Yet I find Hubbard in his own words very helpful me in my life, and the methods I have tried and conscientiously applied, very useful and helpful.

        It should be clear I refer to the self-help methodology. That’s the “technology” I refer to. That’s the “Wine”.

        It’s also perfectly clear to me the organizations(Bottles) that exist to deliver the self-help methods are more than flawed, they are a disaster. That’s evidently the “technology” you are referring to.

        At whose feet the responsibility for that failure ought to be laid, will no doubt be studied and discussed for a long time.

        Presumably, when you planned that fabulously successful Dianetics campaign, you had some sense the self-help method was worth promoting. I’m guessing. Perhaps you did it as a detached, disinterested professional “hired gun marketer”. I find that difficult to imagine.

        I know some folks feel the tw o can’t be separated. I don’t believe that. They are sharply demarked in my understanding, at least so far.

        Perhaps “attack” is too strong a word, but… I “attack” or challenge what I perceive as faulty or lazy thinking and the hubris of people who present a sketchy one-sided evaluations based on second-hand data.

        I do it not to “defend” you in particular, but to defend my own future, and in this case, what I perceive to be the quality nature of this blog.

        Here’s the world DM would create if he were free to run the country. He’s already done it to the CoS. I don’t believe, at this time, that this was Hubbard’s goal, too:

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 8, 2010 8:46 am


        thanks for replying. It may surprise you, but I understand your point of view, and I will give you a few details to explain mine. 12 years ago I had to leave Germany for a year, work-related. During this period my fiance got into Scientology. It was a terrible coincidence, as she was approached by a body router a few days after her father had died unexpectedly. We talked a lot over the phone, and I still wish I had made arrangements to return early. I didn’t. When I got back, she was already indoctrinated, and she tried to convince me to try it out as well. I did it to appease her, because it seemed so important to her, and predictably I wasn’t enthused. I did the personality test, listened to this more than blatant attempt to scare me into buying something, and I even started the TRs. I quit during Bullbaiting. I was single again soon after. What really shocked me was the fact that my fiance had become an entirely different person, and it turned out that I wa powerless to talk some sense into her.

        What obligation do I have to cut Hubbard some slack? As I see it, the organisation Hubbard created took a dear and loved person from me, turned her against me. You complain that I have no personal experience, that I only rely on second hand documents. The majority of those documents were written/compiled by people with personal experience. One of these documents was Counterfeit Dreams. I’m willing and prepared to take a lot of flak, but I feel insulted of you imply that I don’t respect Jeff because I refuse to be a Hubbard apologist. I have never insulted or attacked anyone for his involvement in Scientology (except Miscavige and Hubbard as the creator), and I can see clearly what Jeff produced and what he had to endure.

        I was never influenced by the propaganda about Hubbard, so I ask you: If Scientology claims that Hubbard was seriously wounded in WW2 and used Dianetics to cure himself, while the official files make it very clear that the worst he had to endure was ulcers, does that make me a bigot to believe the documented facts? I don’t think so, and there are many facts (not allegations, but facts) that make it hard (if not impossible) to feel any respect for the man. If someone tells me that Martin Luther King was a cruel, brutal and foul-mouthed scumbag in private, I don’t believe it, because his deeds show his true character. I see what Hubbard did, I’ve read the PLs that order to attack, infiltrate, lie, suppress, intimidate, litigate and destroy, I’ve read the accounts of eye witnesses and victims of his appaling cruelty. I f someone tells me that he was a wonderful and caring person, I don’t believe it. I don’t have to, because it isn’t logical.

        I’m not attacking anyone. I’m not really discussing, because I freely admit that my opinion on Hubbard is inflexible. Of course I believe I’m correct, because I rely on documented facts, but you don’t have adopt my view. I haven’t and I will not insult you if you refuse to share my view. You may want to think about why you see my posts as attacking others, when all I’m doing is stating a different opinion. This is one of the reasons why it might be helpful to question anything, including Hubbard. It will obliterate some (in my opinion) unhealthy thought patterns. It may vex you to no end, but freedom of speech means being allowed to say things that others don’t want to hear. (George Orwell). Speaking of him, I’d like you to consider the following quote:

        «Somebody some day will say ‘this is illegal.’ [Scientology] By then be sure the orgs [Scientology organizations] say what is legal or not.» — L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL of 4 January 1966, “LRH Relationship to Orgs”

        So much for Miscavige trying to establish a global North Korea. It’s not necessary to have known Hubbard personally or to have been personally involved in Scientology to judge Hubbard. There’s more than enough evidence out there.

        P.S. I’m still waiting for the explanation for the redefinition of critical thought.

      • Valkov permalink
        October 9, 2010 12:34 am

        Jeff, I think you just made the most important point I have seen in any discussion of Scientology! The crux of the matter is SANITY. This needs to be a discussion all it’s own: WHAT IS SANITY?

        It has never been satisfactorily answered to abroad agreement in this society. Does it have an objective meaning? What would that be? What did Hubbard mean by it? What do you or I mean by it?

        I worked in psychiatry for quite a few years when I was younger. Even then psychiatry no longer used the term and had no definition for it.Today of course psychiatry has largely gone “biological” and has no use for terms like sanity or “responsibility”.

        Yet most of us understand, when someone says that the CoS is operating in an insane way. Deep down somewhere in most people there is a sense that this word has an important meaning. But what is it? How do we measure it?

        Many definitions of sanity are social definitions, in terms of a person’s adjustment or conformity to social norms. Therefore, the definition of sanity can be quite variable from culture to culture. In the Soviet Union or Cuba, sanity was often judged by their political compliance. Dissenters were defined as “insane”.

        What would the North Korean definition of “sanity” be? Assuming a corresponding word exists in Korean….

        I believe the lower bridge up to Clear is likely to make a person more “sane”.The Clears I met in the1970s and since, seemed exceptionally sane to me. I can not necessarily say the same about the pre-OTs I met.

        I think a Dianetics Case Completion (a “Well and Happy Human Being”) is likely to be more sane than a person who isn’t that. AnARCStraightwire Release is likely to be more sane from the point s/he achieves that, than s/he was before.

        Beyond these kind of musings, there isn’t much more I can say.. I haven’t been on staff, ever, or even on services for any extended length of time. An “organization man”, I am not. As a Russian at heart, I don’t trust organizations or institutions.

        My general view is that LRH is not creating the CoS today. That organization, any organization, is being created by the people who are init and are running it now. They may justify how they are doing it by cherry-picking LRH policy, but that’s all they are doing. LRH was proilific; there is more than enough LRH verbiage available to justify just about anything, just as the Bible or the Koran has been and are being used to justify just about anything, no matter how insane. Burn witches? Inquisitions? Suicide bombers? Please!

        Another parallel: Could the Founding Fathers of the USA have imagined that the “land of the free and the home of the brave” would drop atomic bombs on two Japanese cities full of defenseless noncombatants?

        Do we lay that at the the feet of Tom Payne, Ben Franklin, or any of them? Did they create the organization that that exploded fuel-air bombs over Iraq?

        Not to my way of thinking. The responsibility is with those individuals who are running things right here right now.

        I would propose that sanity, in addition to being able to reason, has something to do with being aware of one’s conscience.

        In any case, I think it would be an awesome blog subject, and I’m glad, Jeff, you turned my thinking in that direction.

      • lunamoth permalink
        October 9, 2010 1:03 am

        Cool observer –

        Thank you for sharing your story. I understand your experience. It’s actually kind of heartbreaking.

        I don’t care so much that you are inflexible in your disdain for LRH – your opinion is your own and you are entitled to it, whatever it is. That you have explained your viewpoint and willingly admit whatever you know your bias to be makes all the difference.

        Personally, I’m trying to stay open to all possibilities as I continue to talk to people and hear their stories. The stories are always much more interesting and ultimately more illuminating to me than mere facts, anyway. Ironically, the longer I go without having to arrive at a “final conclusion” the less important one is to me.

        So I’m not that bothered by bias and opinion, when it is identified as such. What does bother me is when someone asserts their own bias and opinion as fact. Those things are not facts, and doing that makes any kind of productive discussion impossible, and becomes very tedious very fast for at least one of the participants
        (usually me). I do sometimes like being directed to more information via links to sites with documentation, though. That’s a better way to get the point across, I believe, than just railing on other posters that your opinion is more correct, or implying that someone who doesn’t like your last post is an “LRH sympathizer.”

        Just my 2 cents, and like I said, I appreciate you sharing your story.


      • Valkov permalink
        October 9, 2010 1:07 am

        Thanks, Cool Observer. You see, I know it is always personal. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be meaningful. I am very sorry you lost your girl friend that way. It is too much a common story.

        I’ll try to make this short if I can. I cama at Scientology from a completelydifferent direction. I was a “seeker of knowledge” back in the1960s. Even earlier, actually. Thus I looked at various approaches to knowledge. Suffism, Gurdjieff, Buddhism, Russian mystical philosophers, Perennial Philosophy. It was always an individual effort, but I met many people.

        Everything of Scientology I personally tried, was good. I used Assists to help heal the bumps and bruises of my children and myself. There is nothing like doing a Contact Assist and seeing the wound heal in some minutes or a few hours instead of days.

        I did OT-TR0 to a “major stable win”. What does that mean? Itmeans I connected with”me” or”myself” in present time. I became “centered” as they call it today. It seems similar to the first stage of accomplishment in Buddhist practice, which they call “Calm Abiding”. It is a personal state that is better than how I was before in many ways.

        I used the Self Analysis lists for awhile and this got me more in touch with “me”, my mind and being and recovered memories I had lost.

        I did the Purification Rundown and that I needed because of drugs I had taked. Huge improvement for me.

        There are a few more things, but that’s enough for you to get the idea. I did all this because Iwanted to, no other reason.

        I have no experienced anything bad from any of my honest application of what people call “the tech”. Thus I expect it to be so at least up to Clear.

        Thus I instantly reject any blanket condemnation of Hubbard or Scientology. They are simply one-sided. And I will fight to make sure I have access to Scientology in the future. Real Scientology, not the perverted version you encountered 12 years ago. Because by then,it was largely perverted in the organizations.

        Like any tool, it is a double-edged sword. A gun can be used to hunt game to feed one’s family, as my family did in previous generations living in the Far East of Russia and Manchuria. Or it can be used to murder and commit crime.

        Americans like to ask, Do guns kill people, or do people kill people? You tell me. Does a gun jump out of it’s rack and shoot someone, all by itself?

        It’s a tool. What results from it’s use depends almost entirely on the INTENT of the user, or sometimes on the ineptness of the user.

        So you don’t have to cut Hubbard any slack, but don’t infringe on my right to study and use his works since I have seen they can do good.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 9, 2010 12:48 pm

        Valkov / Lunamoth,

        thanks for your input, I think we’re all making progress here. 😉

        I used to be a fan of Denzel Washington, he had so much charisma and presence on the screen, but then I read an interview where one worker identified him as the most unpleasant person he had ever worked with. Arrogant, petulant, jerking everybody around for no good reason. I wish I hadn’t read this interview, because now I can’t enjoy movies with Denzel Washington like I used to. So I understand why people defend Hubbard. They have experienced good things, this is something that cannot be taken away, unless the view of Hubbard would change completely. Then those wins would be “tainted”. This is human, it takes a lot before we push someone off the pedestal we worked so hard to erect. The difference between us lies in the fact that I never put Hubbard on a pedestal. That creates two opposing viewpoints. View #1: You have never tried it out for yourself. If you had experienced real wins, you wouldn’t be so judgemental. View #2: Not being involved gives me a perspective to only look at the results, instead of the promises.

        I believe that the best tech in Scientology is autosuggestion. That doesn’t need to be a bad thing, because it can be very powerful and can produce astonishing results. If Hubbard found a way to get people to activate this “tech”, the results can be terrific. Of course it can be used the other way as well, for instance by drilling into members the belief that every mistake/flap/unwanted or unexpected result is their own fault.

        Scientology has always attracted not just vulnerable people but also idealists, people willing to sacrifice themselves for the common good. Enthusiastic people, who are charming and positive, people who honestly want to improve things. Even when Scientology became more and more restrictive, paranoid and aggressive, there were people trying their best to do the right thing. The bridge is definitely designed to give people positive feedback during the early stages. You never get a second chance for a first impression, and for those who got onboard that impression has been positive.

        So it’s natural that they say that Scientology has some value. And I agree, even though I think that most of it comes via a placebo effect. But that’s just my opinion. I see that Scientology has always been about manipulation and control. Maybe not in the first years, but in the 60s it became a hostile, vindictive, litigous and extremely paranoid organisation, and it was LRH who shaped it that way. Of course there were still good people in it, trying their best to pursue positive goals, local execs treating their “flock” with kindness and respect, and Hubbard didn’t lose his charm and charisma (unless he lapsed into a fit of rage). But the organisation itself was criminal and morally bankrupt.

        When Hubbard launched his Dianetics foundation, he said to one of the associates: “Let’s sell those people a piece of blue sky.” I know it’s not on tape, it could be a fabrication like Hubbard’s idea that founding a religion will make millions of dollars. But if I see the facts, what he did earlier and what he would do later, and I conclude that the shoe fits. The first step is usually the personality test (rigged), followed by the evaluation. Hubbard wrote a script advising the evaluators to either find and exploit the “ruin” of a person or make the person believe there is a “ruin”. So it’s manipulative from the very beginning and not trustworthy.

        I add a link that summarises Hubbards life until 1980. It’s not slander, it’s based on documented facts and testimonials. “Surprisingly” it does not contain anything positive, but it provides many details that answer many questions and explain many seemingly inexplicable acts by LRH.

        Combined with these quotes
        it’s hard to see a man intending help man rise to greater hights.

        It’s good to exchange opinions without dissing the other, that’s why people have cognitions on this board. I assume many members leave the abusive organisation seperating “the curch” and “the philosophy” and “technology”. Some continue to do this untill they die, others realize that they left the church, which seemed to be impossible before. Then they ask themselves: Is it really impossible to challenge the source? Some decide they don’t want to do it or conclude it’s not necessary, others go the whole nine yards and become ex-Scientologists. Is this a bad thing? Only if you believe that this planet has no future without clearing it. For me the term “clearing the planet” gives me shivers, not just because I’m German and aware af the darkest pages in the history of my country.

        A world where only the unaberrated have civil rights? A world where the orgs say what’s is legal or not? A world where everyone below 2.0 ist handled or disposed of quietly and without sorrow? A world where discourse it not allowed because the very concept of criticism is seen as an attack and triggers retributive action? A new civilisation consisting of homo novis, where the reamining “homo saps”/wogs/ raw meat/ common humanoid etc. gets on the bridge or into quarantine (or worse)? This is why the German authorities keeo a watchful eye on Scientology. Not because DM sqaunders donated money, not because he beats and humiliates his staff, not because Scientology bankrupts the members. The reason can be found in the books and PLs Hubbard wrote.

        If Hubbard had founded a group that works towards making people stronger, more intelligent, more rational and perceptive, if Scientology had actually encouraged free thinking, discourse and DOUBT without punishment, if the idealistic goals had been actually pursued, then Hubbard would have left an organisation not overwhelmed by his “sudden” departure. Miscavige wouldn’t have been able to seize power. A nasty person like him would have never been allowed to gain any influence.

        “People shoudn’t fear the government. the government should fear the people.” Coups like Miscavige accomlished only happen in groups where the people are cowed and cannot exist without someone telling them what to do. There were no checks and balances, Miscavige didn’t need a group of revolutionaries to help him seize power. He asessed the situation, understood that he only needed to shudder the Broekers into silence (they had helped LRH embezzle $200m, at the time there was no tax exemption). He orchestrated everything for years while Hubbard was in hiding. and no competitor shaped up. Miscavige took over because Hubbard had made the organisation ripe for the picking by the most unscrupulous man around – David Miscavige. Another long post…well, it cannot be helped.

        Thank you, Jeff, for spending your valuable time reading this, it is appreciated.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        October 9, 2010 4:00 pm


        seems like I’ve written another novella, and in the end I forgot to include an important point: You said that I shouldn’t infringe on your rights to read Hubbard and find value in it. I DO acknowledge that people can find value in Hubbard’s writings, it’s just that my research leads me to conlcude that those pearls of wisdom are part of a bigger framework which is not beneficial at all, but can be quite damaging. Becaue for me there’s enough compelling evidence that this framework was never supposed to be beneficial (exept for Hubbard). If you can pick and choose and apply your chosen aspects in a way that benefits you – good for you. But that’s not the approach Hubbard had in mind. For him there were two alternatives: You’re in or out. You joined for all eternity. Fixed dedicated glare, no open-minded approach, because it’s a deadly serious activity and the motto is win or die in the attempt. I don’t think this can be taken out of context.

        My criticism is not limited to Scientology, if you know the bible backwards and apply everything literally, you WILL become an intolerant person, oif not a fanatic who demands others to agree with him or else…This is not what Christ had in mind. I’m pretty sure level-headed imams will say the same about the Quran and Mohammeds intentions.

        In conclusion, I’m not trying to infringe on your rights concerning Hubbard’s writings, it seems that the Russian government is clearly better equipped to that 😉

      • Valkov permalink
        October 11, 2010 9:57 am


        I never put Hubbard on a pedestal. I simply read and applied his ideas.

        Fortunately for us, I believe all of his works will be available pretty much open source from now on, through the www.

        You have stated where you are coming from well enough. But I already knew that, from your first post. Except for your personal motivation, which you have since revealed, and it is quite understandable.

        I am sorry you lost your girlfriend that way, and I wish you the best. Perhaps she will see the light, and leave the CoS her self soon and actually seek you out again. You must have loved her very much and had many hopes for your relationship and future lives together.

        Beyond that, I have no sense at all, that you have any idea of where I’m coming from, or the reality of the issues I have attempted to bring up. But that’s life. We often do not grasp the thinking of another so easily. See the Tower of Babel story from the Bible.

        Briefly, Hubbard discovered or developed a philosophy and associated methods of self-improvement. I like these just fine. There is nothing wrong with them in my experience of them.

        Hubbard also did and created other things – like various organizations. Some of these organizations were supposed to be like “schools” in the old sense where people could learn and experience the philosophy and self-improvement methods.

        Field Auditiors were originally similar in function to early Buddhist or Christian missionaries into societies to “spread the word”. The “word” was actually practical “how-to” kind of stuff.

        They were out there to apply the self-help methods to public to demonstrate the methods worked. Field Auditors were very successful because the methods did in fact work, and the local orgs were filling up with students who wanted to learn more, regularly. Local orgs were the actual “schools”. Upper orgs had more advanced courses.

        The Sea Org was supposed to be yet something else. Clearly that worked out poorly, to say the least, as in the end it has been the S.O. that has destroyed the viability and helpfulness of the Church of Scientology. But more basically, it is human venality and stupidity that has accomplished the degradation of it all.

        What I don’t understand, is why some people think in black and white about Hubbard. Why would anyone expect him to be totally selfless, or totally selfish? Either view is seems obviously simplistic, out of touch with the realities of life and human beings.

        Just because in his most lucid moments he thought about and wrote about sanity, why would anyone expect Hubbard himself to be sane 100% of the time? Was Plato sane? Was Buddha? How about the Founders of the early Christian churches? Were they sane? Have you read any of their writings? Early Christian leaders were responsible for butchering thousands of their fellow Christians. Do you know why?

        Recommended: a book titled “Beyond Belief” by Elaine Pagels. Pagels is one of the world’s premier scholars of Early Christianity. The Gnostic Gospels is another of her books.

        “Beyond Belief” is not a long book and very readable. You might find the parallels between the establishment of the CoS and the establishment of catholic and orthodox Christian churches astounding. What took hundreds years in Christianity, has taken less than 50 years in Scientology.

        The fact is this discussion is one-sided. I see quite clearly the many things wrong with “institutional scientology”, but I am interested in real solutions, not academic intellectualization about it all.

        It’s one thing to attack, condemn, and support the ban of actual criminal behavior and policies as practiced by the CoS. And to call for Justice actions against any and all individuals responsible for them.

        And it’s quite something else to promote the suppression of the source philosophies, whether it’s the Bible, the Koran, or Hubbard’s philosopical writings. Because as Hubbard wrote, “I am 100% responsible for it’s development – you are 100% responsible for it’s application”.

        Any source philosophy can be “used” to justify weird, destructive, or insane actions. Any source philosophy can also be used to justify doing sane, constructive, and good. The crucial difference is the person’s intention and ability to apply to the actual circumstances.

        You are German. Well, I am Russian, and I had family who did not escape and survive Stalin’s GULAGs. My bias against, and resistance to, any kind of institutional oppression is extreme. Russians have a centuries old history of living under tyrannical and oppressive regimes.

        The CoS is like North Korea. That does not justify the suppression of Hubbard’s body of thought. It does call for the exposure and prosecution of the reality of the actual practices of the CoS. It does call for investigations into whether and how and why Hubbard’s body of thought was used to justify injustice or harmful practices or criminal or insane behavior. And that is being done. It does not call for the blanket condemnation of everything about Hubbard. Leave that to the plolitical demagogues, those who would ride to power by inflaming the passions of the credulous public.

        Thank you for once again providing me with the opportunity to spend my time on a long post that you probably can’t relate to, Cool Observer. But perhaps someone else might find some parts of it meaningful, and that will be good enough for me.

        Here’s a song for all of us. It was originally written for the over 1,00o,000 runaway, homeless by choice, teenage youth in the USA. But it resonates with me and I believe many others. If there are similar problems in Germany, perhaps you could look for a way you can contribute to improving the situation. Or the many immigrant/refugees that I hear are coming to Germany.

        It’s a good song for the FREE DANIEL MONTALVO effort.

  21. October 6, 2010 5:36 pm

    If L Ron Hubbard was incapacitated for 8 days prior to his death, then how come he wrote an entire new will for himself a day or two after his death.
    And who ever said on her that the children and MSH werre taken care of for life in that new will is a complete liar.
    They should have been. Probably were in the earlier will when he was saner. But no, the kids are all having to work and toe the line according to the current management, yet they are completely left out of all Events, Bios or whatever.

    I doubt LRH would have been happy with the changes in this will and the way his family has been cared for…

    His family was not even told he was ill, much less that he had had a stroke —- No the Vultures Pounced and the Family was left basically “Out”.

    • October 6, 2010 7:53 pm

      to Nancy Many,

      And who ever said on her that the children and MSH werre taken care of for life in that new will is a complete liar.

      I said it. He had family trusts and it’s in his will. Here’s the link to his last will, the day before he died.

      MSH had a trust, how else do you think she was able to pay for butlers and maids for her household after LRH died? She lived on Franklin in Hollywood. She was well taken care after his passing. He loved her.

      How do you think Arthur has survived all these years? He doesn’t sell that much art. He has a trust, he’s a trust fund baby.

      • October 6, 2010 11:45 pm

        This “New Will” was written 2-3 days before his death. His own Doctor states that he was incapacitated for at least 8 days prior to his death. He was uncared for, in terms of bodily needs.
        As for MSH and the Children. I have other information that I will not share, but shows a very different picture, and YES the kids have to work and are not living lives of anything like a “trust fund Baby”.
        On this I say no more. Jesse Prince was present for much of the “Handling” of the families legal matters after his death and he has already made that public knowledge.
        On this subject I will say no more at this time.
        nance many

      • October 7, 2010 12:33 am

        Actually Mary Sue lived on North Edgemont St.

        North of Los Feliz Blvd.

        Also her “servants” weren’t servants but actually Sea Org watchers who reported back to Broeker and later on to Miscavige.

        In other words she spent the rest of her life a virtual prisoner under house arrest.

        Regarding the trust fund.

        Arthur, Suzette and Diana received very little money from it.

        About a hundred grand each.

        Enough for Arthur to rent a nondescript apartment in NoHo and make contacts in New York for his art and Suzette to start a Market Research with her former husband known as “White Marketing”.

        Diana’s still making fifty bucks a week as a SO member at Int while Davy’s is rolling the doe and building expensive Mansions for himself with his Ol’man’s money.

        Let’s just say.

        There are questions about the validity of Trust B.

      • Just Me permalink
        October 7, 2010 12:38 am

        Thanks for that LRH will document. I quickly scanned it and saw it says nothing about the value of the funds placed in the Hubbard family trust. I don’t have access to documents describing how much money the family received through that trust, but would love to know. If anyone here knows, I’d like to see some dox or hear your version of it.

        I’ve been told by folks who claim to know first-hand that Suzette and her family are financially challenged.

        I know nothing about how much revenue Arthur earns from his art sales or the conditions under which he lives, although I once went to an exhibition of his art, and saw him sell a bunch that night (many thousands of dollars).

        I also don’t know under what current conditions Diana lives. But when I knew her she was married to a Scientology public person, and they seemed to live modestly. Admittedly, some people with money are not conspicuous about it.

        I’ve personally known ‘trust fund babies’ who had lots of bucks and some who were virtually destitute, receiving a few hundred dollars a month. So I don’t think ‘trust fund’ status necessarily means the same as independently wealthy.

        Re Mary Sue’s access to caregivers and ‘butlers or maids’ in her later years, I knew someone who worked for MSH full-time during that period, but she was SO staff and was paid (if you can call it that) by the Church.

        That’s what I’ve observed or heard from those I know well enough to respect their observations.

        Just Me

      • October 7, 2010 2:08 am

        wow, this is interesting info.

        I never knew this, from the sounds of this, it would appear that something did in deed happen.

        Where does the royalties for his books not scientology go? Who cashes those checks. From what I understand ASI was set up to handle the sales of his books but the royalties were still suppose to go to LRH directly, that’s why it’s called Author Services. To service the author. They were suppose to be his agent for his non scientology books.

        and didn’t David Miscavige work at ASI?

        This doesn’t seem right to me. And it leaves one to wonder what exactly David Miscavige did with those royalties, they should have gone to the family, I believe there’s a law on the books about that. Wouldn’t LRH left it to them so that their survival is covered.

        Or am I to assume that he did?

      • Karen#1 permalink
        October 7, 2010 2:47 am

        Kathy ~~
        She did not have butlers and maids.
        She was guarded by 2 Sea org Members that reported to DM.
        She lived at 2345 Chislehurst in Los Feliz

      • October 7, 2010 6:15 am

        Also, why were sea org members guarding her that reported to DM?

        This was her home correct, she owned the property? Or did the church own the property? Anyone know the answers to these questions?

        This just gets weirder and weirder as I go down the rabbit hole on this. lol.
        It’s creepy and very strange.

      • October 7, 2010 2:48 pm

        Yes it is true that by law the owner of copyrights can not give them away in a will. They automatically go to family. The family would have to individually sign something, that gave their rights away.

        Watch Jesse’s Video’s. He was there.


      • October 7, 2010 5:02 pm

        to nancy many,

        per Jesse Prince Tape 3, this can be used as evidence, they had no attorneys
        of their own present and did not know what they were signing.

        It appears that David Miscavige overwelmed MSH to get her to sign docs and that includes LRH’s non scientology work, that is not religious and has nothing to do with the Religion of Scientology.

        Someone needs to contact Arthur and the rest of his family and get a good attorney, who knows copyrights, royalties etc, someone like
        Alan Isaacman,

        This can be reversed and order restored. As rightful heirs, the royalties should go to the family.

    • October 7, 2010 9:29 pm

      Kathy – you are absolutely correct, what was done and how it was done was coercion and therefor is illegal. And any estate attorney could and can still get it overturned to this day, including the will that was written AFTER he became incapacitated (per his own Doctor ) and the day before he died.

      DM conftronts this grieving family one at a time — per Jesse they were all done seperately and with no lawyers of their own, They had not even been told he was ill.

      I know none of them are lawyers, and were coerced into giving everythign to David.

      So, what’s going to be done about it???

      The same reason other people are afraid of DM, and stay locked up. “Stockhom Syndrome”

      • October 7, 2010 11:32 pm

        to Nancy Many,

        That’s too bad, then nothing will happen and DM will get away with it, the loot.

        Until one of the family members does something, nothing will change.

        We can all sit here till the sun comes up, discussing this but until Arthur or Suzette does something (Diana’s inside the wall) regarding this, DM will continue in his operating basis.

        It is their responsibility to open their eyes and hat themselves. It is their responsibility to walk their path. It is their journey, I know it’s painful to watch but that is the other side of responsibility, to not do.

        All one can do is show them the info, give them a heads up. But if they are not ready to walk that path, confront the truth, there is nothing anybody can do.

        The only thing to fear is fear itself.

  22. freespirit permalink
    October 6, 2010 6:40 pm

    I’ve read all these comments and I can’t get over my feeling of utter revulsion and utter contempt for DM. I think LRH was nuts when he was near his end, and much evidence points to the tampering of his will, and then to cover it up even more, his family was bullied and harrassed and horribly mistreated. No doubt if DM could snuff them out he would have. Romanoffs anyone?

    Why do Scientologists fear him; tolerate him? I think simply because they can’t confront that this level of evil would exist within Scientology. Many of them don’t know what has been going on, but if they did, probably they would attempt valiantly to find a reason why it was justified. I think the questions pose a platform for considerable discussion. WHy did the Germans tolerate Hitler?

    To physically attack his own pc? Blame it on steroids? Come on! There is NO EXCUSE for this type of conduct, PERIOD.

  23. October 7, 2010 12:35 am

    The Sea Organization, the current senior management group of the “church” lead by David Miscavige, is a ”rogue” cult within Scientology. In every sense of the word and by any definition this group is a CULT. Public Scientologists not in the Sea Organization, are sort of “collateral damage” victims of the activities of this cult group within Scientology and therefore exhibit cult symptoms even though they would argue vociferously to deny such.

    • Valkov permalink
      October 7, 2010 10:11 pm

      I tend to agree with your analysis here. I have been pondering how to place the various orgs in terms of their conditions. Without visiting each one, my general impressions go like this: local orgs are PTS to TRC, Flag, and the IAS. I can’t speak for anyof what used to be the Advanced Orgs, or for the new “Ideal Orgs”.

      I see the IAS as Miscavige’s main tool for suppressing the public as well as all of the orgs; the Ideal Org programs suppress the orgs quite directly, and their publics also.

      The GAT is also a tool of general suppression of the orgs and of training and auditing efforts.

      In my area, I know a couple of older staff who are absolutely great dedicated people, who are still hanging on trying to deliver the real goods – LRH auditing and training tech. I can only imagine how difficult it is for them!

      I’l be checking that org out in the near future, I’ll post what I see.

  24. Soderqvist1 permalink
    October 7, 2010 7:42 am

    Sinar: Rick had never been there before and was brought up to handle Security matters. Not aware of any “servants” there.

    Soderqvist1: The documentation tells a different story!
    Hubbard’s Wife and son Arthur has been mentioned here regarding the testament. I have quoted that too from Jesse Prince Tape 3!

    A Piece of Blue Sky CHAPTER FIVE After Hubbard
    In about May 1983, Vicki was “deemed rehabilitated” and ordered back to the Religious Technology Center at Gilman. Until Hubbard’s death, the Aznarans remained at Gilman, when Richard was ordered to Hubbard’s ranch at Creston working there as a security guard for a year and a half: “Richard was forced to falsify time cards to falsely indicate that he had been working forty hour work weeks, so as to avoid an obligation on the part of Defendants from paying him overtime ….
    Richard was forced to sleep in a horse stable with several . . . other indoctrinated employees.
    Sources: FAIR Complaint in California Superior Court, Los Angeles County, no. CA 001012; Aznaran Complaint in District Court, Central District, California, no. CV 88-1786-WDK; “Flag Order 3879 Cancelled,” 18 April 1988; RTC et al. vs. Yanny et al., in California Superior Court, L.A. County, no. C690211.

    38. I was advised by Richard Aznaran, Sinar Parman and Annie Breeder that Hubbard was an unhandled PTS III when he died. According to Sinar Parman, Hubbard was a psychopathic insane person screaming about BT’s and clusters at the top of his lungs.

    Jesse Prince Tape 3
    L: Who else told you Hubbard was pretty far gone and couldn’t hold a train of thought?

    J: Rick Aznaran.

    L: How would he know that?

    J: Because he was there, and the hired farm hands that they had said
    that — Rick Aznaran related this story to me — that often they would
    hear L. Ron Hubbard screaming at BTs late in the night. He was heavily
    medicated with drugs from Dr. Dink like valium, the this the that, and
    the other thing.

    L: Tranquilizers?

    J: Tranquilizers, and then he’s experimenting with drugs, he’s getting
    any kind of drug he wants to from Dink.

    L: Any possibility of anti-psychotics?

    J: Yeah, I do believe he had some of those too. Rick said there was a
    cabinet full of all kind of prescription medicine that you could ever
    imagine when they went to where he was an opened his medicine drawer.

    J: Now after he passed, I was there, when Mary Sue Hubbard was made to sign an agreement, I do believe it was $100,000 to relinquish any kind of claim on the copyrights, or trademarks, or bank accounts, or anything to do with the Scientology fortune. I was part of like a 12 or 17 man team of people that just invaded her house, and was all a pretty cordial affair. She didn’t want to sign the damn thing. Lawyers were there, David Miscavige started screaming, “You are going to sign it!”

    L: He was screaming at her, “You’re going to sign this document”?

    J: We were all there, browbeating her

    L: 12 to 17 people?

    J: Yeah, all in Sea Org uniforms. All in cars everywhere, just going in there and overwhelming this poor little old lady.

    L: Would u say that you were an intimidating presence?

    J: Beyond any question.

    L: Would you say that Mary Sue Hubbard was coerced into signing an agreement?

    J: It’s beyond any question. As well as Arthur, I was there when he signed it too. He got $50,000.

    L: He got $50,000. Did they have their own lawyers there who looked at the documents?

    J: No, no. They had no representation. All the Scientology lawyers were there, and they would just sit down, this is what they lawyers say, sign here.

    L: Were the allowed to read the documents?

    J: Yeah, but I don’t think they knew what they were reading.

  25. windhorse permalink
    October 8, 2010 1:33 am

    Re MSH: Diana told me years and years ago that MSH had gotten quite adept at the commodities market and made money doing that. Possibly one source of income for her. She was living comfortably but not lavishly and certainly not with maids and servants.


  26. Ginger permalink
    October 8, 2010 2:49 am

    Everyone……be sure to catch “The Mentalist”, this program is on tonight (Thursday) on CBS.

    Great program about a church – VERY VERY similar to Scientology – with stalking, fair game, leaked confessionals, Snow White operation, and more……..Oh yeah, baby!!!!!

    It’s on CBS, 10:00 EST; series called “The Mentalist”

    • lunamoth permalink
      October 9, 2010 12:39 am


      Saw this and enjoyed it! Had to laugh when the special agent said to the cultist he was interrogating (having gotten a non-answer to his query) “I’ll repeat the question.”


      Wh0ever wrote this episode either reads these blogs or has other sources of inside information on the c of m. Definitely got the feeling that any deviations from the real scene inside scientology were
      purposeful and for legal reasons only. Fascinating.

  27. October 8, 2010 11:06 pm

    I or rather my ex-wife was friends with the wife (Alaskan Native… Betsy as I knew her) of DM’s auditor who was sent to the RPF for missing a withhold or some such thing on DM. That was 1997? Plus 15 years….. perhaps it was 1995? Could be that he hasn’t done a session since then I don’t know. But what I do know is that I was there during all of the “power plays” prior to LRH’s death. And I do not like DM …. one of the main reasons I resigned in 1986. I have tried but from what I know today DM is an imposter put in place by other non-scientologists who have assumed control of the CSI. Dare I mention who they might be! Scientologists remain on the “Bridge” because of the implicit threat of eternal damnation and due to their lifelong investments in Auditing and Training on their route up the “Bridge”. It is a very old story line with a New and Improved Package/Wrapper. One could not pay me neigh approach me to continue my involvement with this operation as it is today. There is no part of it it I can relate to. FYI

    • Jeff permalink*
      October 9, 2010 12:30 am

      I don’t buy into the whole “DM is a Manchurian Candidate put in place by intelligence agencies to destroy the C of S” conspiracy theory. Doesn’t jibe with my own experience at the Base or with any data I have seen from others who were actually on the inside.

      • October 9, 2010 1:23 am


        I already posted this on Marty’s board but it bears repeating.

        None of the persona dramatis who brought down Scientology operated out of the Int Base with the exception of Miscavige himself who had contacts within the CIA.

        This is a well documented fact.

        Read ‘The Powerhouse’ by Susan B Trento:

        Anyone who believes that intelligence agencies wouldn’t get involved with influential religions or cults is being naive and is historically challenged.

        It’s happened throughout history and continues today.

        Religions and cults make great cover organizations for conducting covert operations.

        This is a fact.

        Also I don’t buy the lone Miscavige theory.

        If it was just him alone.

        The little brainless twit would have been behind bars years ago.

        Someone is protecting his sorry ass.

        I’ll give you three guesses on who that is.

      • Jeff permalink*
        October 9, 2010 5:23 am

        Sorry RJ, I don’t buy it. I’ve been there. No one outside the Church “runs” Miscavige. Your documented facts aren’t documented facts. When and if someone gives me some facts or dox or even a credible inside witness I’ll give it some credence. All I’ve seen are links to fringe websites where someone is giving even more off-the-wall opinions and theories. You are welcome to believe in whatever theories you want to believe in – but I don’t buy it.

      • October 9, 2010 8:02 pm


        You can ignore these facts and history as well if you wish.


        I’ve seen enough spooks or more accurately FIOs and others from the IC who just happened to be FODs hanging out at AO to convince me otherwise.

        Seems you ignore the fact that three well known Scientologists Ingo Swann, Hal Puthoff and Pat Price have already gone on record as having worked for the CIA during the ’70’s.

        Just like you seem to ignore the fact that Miscavige himself had connections to Robert Gray at H&K.

        Miscavige is just a safe solution.

      • Jeff permalink*
        October 9, 2010 9:51 pm

        RJ, I have yet to see any real facts. Random observations, yes. Theories and speculation, yes. Lots of acronyms, yes. Facts, not so much.

        I could offer my own random observations. I’ve seen Miscavige up close and personal. I’ve seen him operate day to day. He’s not answering to anyone. He’s not taking orders from anyone. Attend a hundred or so meetings with him and see what you think.

        I think what Scientologists have difficulty coming to terms with is how one power-hungry sociopath could take over the entirety of the Church Scientology, despite the fact that this group is supposedly the most knowledgeable group on the planet on the subjects of human nature, the mind, suppression, PTSness, Ethics, Organizational tech and so on. Yet he walked in and took over. And no one saw it or stopped it. That seems “impossible” to them. Hence there must be a conspiracy, he must have powerful, shadowy backers working behind the scenes.

        But think about it. Why would the government have any interest in a tiny religious cult? Sure, there’s some money involved, but not that much. In terms of the US Government it’s really small potatoes.

        Occam’s Razor: “the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.”

      • October 10, 2010 12:10 am

        Okay Jeff,

        I see your point and I apologize for any rudeness.

        However, to answer your question:

        “Why would the government have any interest in a tiny religious cult ?”

        I can think of plenty of reasons and I’m sure you can too if you thought it over as well.

        First of all.

        Scientology was not just some “tiny religious cult”.

        It was very influential particularly and still is to some degree like for instance the Thule Society which also was a “tiny religious cult” as well.

        What about P2 another “tiny religious cult”?

        Not to mention the .: .: and the OTO.

        Also I don’t totally agree with Occam’s Razor.

        Nice theory but sometimes it doesn’t apply since sometimes the simplest explanation is not always the correct one.

        It’s just the one used to cover up the more complex operation behind it.

        Another thing is that Miscavige doesn’t have to take orders.

        All he has to do is act the manner proscribed.

        How many times have the CIA turned over a country they feared was going to go communist to the tender mercies of some ruthless dictator?

        The fact is that Miscavige and his clique of IAS elitists have done more damage to the Organization than all USG agencies combined.

        Not only that but with complete protection from above mentioned agencies.

        Try reporting Miscavige’s illegal activities to the FBI or his obvious violations of the organization’s 501 (c)iii status to the IRS and see what happens.

        I rest my case.

        As far as I’m concerned the guy’s just a patsy though unlike Oswald he isn’t aware enough to know he’s being played as one.

        Oh by the way.

        There are some of us who were never fooled by the little cretin.

      • Jeff permalink*
        October 10, 2010 4:52 am

        RJ, you really think Scientology was ever “influential”? Only in its own press releases. You think it was ever big? Those numbers were invented for PR purposes. You think the intelligence community is giving the Church orders? Really? Who? Robert Gray? Robert Grey is running the Church of Scientology? Or Ingo Swann? Or Hal Puthoff?

        Sorry I don’t buy it. I haven’t seen any facts yet, just vague connections and “I saw some spies at AO once” and “so and so was once CIA, so therefore they still are and everyone they met is…” Where is any hard evidence? Yet you come on here with utter ironclad certainty in this conspiracy of yours and you are totally condescending and dismissive towards anyone who doesn’t go along with it (“naive,” “historically challenged” and so on). How about prefacing some of your statements with phrases like “in my opinion…” or “I believe that…” instead of high-handed assertions of factuality? Has it ever occurred to you that other people, like myself, are intelligent and can look and evaluate and have considerable inside knowledge? Please, have a bit of respect for the intelligence and awareness of others.

      • Just Me permalink
        October 10, 2010 12:47 am


        Are you saying that Hill & Knowlton (H&K), the public relations consulting firm, is a CIA front organization? And that because the C0$ was a H&K client that Miscavige is a CIA agent?

        I was once a Hill & Knowlton client. And I’m not a CIA agent.

        Everybody who’s even a semi-anybody in Washington, DC, knows several people who work for or worked for the CIA. I know several people who worked for and work for CIA. I have had clients who used to work for CIA. I am not a CIA agent.

        Over the years I’ve been at gatherings where my photograph was taken with people who were federal Cabinet members, members of Congress and US Senators and others with close associations with CIA. And I am not a CIA agent.

        I also once dated a rock and roll musician and went to a few parties attended by movie stars, but that didn’t turn me into a supermodel either.

        All this “they were seen in public with …” and “their names were found in the appointment books of …” is inconclusive by any stretch of my imagination, based on my observations of similar connections of hundreds if not thousands of other people who are, that’s right, not CIA agents.

        Just Me

    • October 9, 2010 10:06 pm

      to Christopher Pearson

      there are however, infiltrators. it’s standard procedure by the government, it’s to monitor so there’s no problems,we don’t want another waco or heaven’s gate.

      so, hopefully, the infiltrators that are there can alert the authorities at the correct moment so as nobody kills themselves or others as there is guns up there and miscavige is a loose cannon.

      I just read marty’s blog and tom devocht is getting geared up for a fight, so this isn’t gonna be pretty and tom’s right, if miscavige is backed into a corner, he might just take that gun and either use it on himself or others. The sheriff’s up there should be on alert, just in case.

      And no, it’s not Baca’s jurisdiction, he’s la county not riverside.

  28. October 9, 2010 1:24 am

    to Jeff,

    Dude, I’m rofl, the whole “Manchurian Candidate” thing, well that just cracks me up. What is it with this conspiracy bs? I’m so tired of it, in the church it was the evil psychs, the government, the fbi, the cia etc etc. It’s always some group, that’s out to destroy us, be on the lookout, everything is very bad and it’s a dangerous world out there. lol. I’m sorry but I have to laugh, I’m now going to go into glee 🙂

    • October 9, 2010 7:47 pm

      It’s almost as funny as the idea that one low IQ moron all by himself could be the cause of so much upset.

      By the name of David Miscavige.

      Now that’s hysterical!

      So far this constant whining and carping about this retard hasn’t accomplished much else but more carping and whining.


      I’m unwilling to assign an incompetent high school dropout with a low IQ who lacks any erudition that much cause.

      You can if you wish.

  29. Soderqvist:1 permalink
    October 9, 2010 7:47 am

    Soderqvist1: Both Marty Rathbun, and Larry Brennan consider every conspiracy theory above David Miscavige as an unlikely explanation for the “Dear Leader’s” Reign of Terror. In this link I have put forth my reasons why I believe their conclusions are more likely to be truth, than a more esoteric, and fanciful explanation!

    Larry Brennan: I know how Miscavige rose to power and I saw him do it. I had Hubbard orders in my hands as part of that corporate mission, I worked under Hubbard orders on legal matters for years prior to it when I was in the GO and I got Hubbard orders on external affairs matters for much of two years after that when I was later on WDC.
    Hell I’ve even had people tell me that I must have gotten orders from Hubbard’s clone and not Hubbard as he would not do shady or illegal things.

  30. cool observer permalink
    October 9, 2010 11:43 pm

    Finally we get to the conspiracy theories, this could be fun. The explanation for governments turning a blind eye is really not that complicated. The organization successfully hides behind the religious cloak, America is rather sensitive when it comes to religious freedom. It’s part of the heritage of this country, which was singled out as the new Kanaan by the Puritans who were not really liked in Europe due to their rather extreme views.
    Besides that, Scientology has proven to be willing and able to exploit every loophole of the law, they must have some officials in their pocket through bribes or blackmail, and it’s very obvious that this mafia-like organization will not go down quietly. It would get very ugly. The government has bigger problems to solve, and it’s obvious that Scientology exists on borrowed time, so why bother fighting something that is dying anyway?

    And I don’t see any evidence that Miscavige is stupid or retarded. He wasn’t booted out of high school due to terrible grades, he left because he believed (or was told) that the wog school system did nothing he might be able to use in life. I don’t say he’s brilliant, but I don’t think he’s got a low IQ. If that would be the case, it would be a damning verdict on Hubbard’s claim to make Scientologists more intelligent, more perceptive, more willing to confront evil etc. Strong, intelligent and perceptive people with great confront do not allow a dimwitted dwarf to jerk them around.

    But the truth is out there, it can all be found in the Tenyaka Memorial. 🙂

  31. Athena8 permalink
    October 10, 2010 10:19 am

    When this issue was addressed a year ago in “Flies in the Anointment,” it garnered 10 comments. Revisiting the topic a year later has garnered 115 comments. I deem that statistic to be “straight up and vertical.” “And that’s what I call taking the number of awakening Scientologists to a WHOLE NEW LEVEL!”

    • lunamoth permalink
      October 10, 2010 6:33 pm

      Great point, Athena8!

  32. Pete Sagi permalink
    October 13, 2010 9:14 pm

    To answer the question you posed, Jeff … it’s simple. DM is a bully, but, not only is he a bully, he is surrounded by wimps. If it were otherwise he couldn’t get by with being THE bully.


  33. Soderqvist1 permalink
    October 14, 2010 11:42 am

    Soderqvist1: That they are wimps only beg the question; why are they wimps when Scientology is supposed to make you more able? Or to put in another way, if wogs are inferior why do they not buy Miscavige’ s ideas? They are wimps because L. Ron Hubbard made them so, and he even told you so in his book Fundamental of Thought. If a Thetan want to go free he must create truth, to be only effect of truth will not set him free, a society that only permit you to be effect of truth will only make drones! So the good part in Scientology is a product of many, which was the case before KSW1, which states that Man cannot create truth. Read ‘Opening Pandora’s Box’ by Alan Walter and see for your self how it was in the civilisation at Saint Hill when contributors to the tech got commendation called ‘Fellowships of Scientology’, and David Mayo has said pretty much the same.

    Soderqvist1: It has puzzled my mind that Lunamoth has tanked Karen for information about that “L. Ron Hubbard “did set up checks and balances” in his Legacy”, yet I posted facts to the contrary but non of them thanked me for telling the truth. Why don’t you care about Larry Brennan’s declarations? Organized Scientology, and its Religious Cloaking is his Brainchild, he built it!

    Larry Brennan
    Much of what they filed with the IRS contained outright lies or otherwise distortions to cloud the whole truth.

    If you follow declarations Miscavige and others in management have made in courts and their filings to the IRS in the early 1990s you would think there was some big change in the early 80s and there was indeed some real arms length with local corporate boards making their most major financial decisions and a central management no longer just ripping off money from the lower orgs. Furthermore you will get the idea that organized scientology is no longer centrally controlled as different “high up” bodies like RTC, CSI and CST exist each substantially independent of the other with Miscavige himself not even involved until he got into RTC in 1986.

    Nothing can be further from the truth.

    Larry Brennan
    Always make it look like it is not to “protect” the real power from
    perceived legal, financial and/or other “liability”. Be it Hubbard
    then or DM (on “behalf of” Hubbard) now.

    DM became that “power” but, before he became the sole power, he shared
    it because he got Hubbard’s ear to do so (and thus the real power).

    Part of the reason that so much about “the 1981/82 takeover” by DM et
    al was hard to pin down on exact orders and time lines is that so much
    was hidden about it all to mask Hubbard’s real control of it.

    Soderqvist1: Thus Hubbard appointed Miscavige because he won the competition in ruthlessness with the other in management!

  34. Soderqvist1 permalink
    October 14, 2010 11:56 am

    OPENING PANDORA’S BOX by Alan Walter

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