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Killing the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs

September 18, 2010

Carrying on my program of hosting guest contributors, here is an essay by my good friend and supporter, Karen de la Carriere.

Killing the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs

by Karen de la Carriere

I would like to tell a story to illustrate what happened with me and many other Ex-SO.

There was a beloved lawyer, nicknamed “Scoop,” in a suburb of Denver, Colorado that a relative of mine greatly admired. The whole town admired him. He was OL (Opinion Leader)#1. The town of Breckenridge is wealthy. There isn’t a house under $1million in the town. Endless charity dinners, fund raising for worthy causes, is the chief social activity. “Scoop,” the wealthy lawyer, generously contributed to every call for money. The town thought he was the greatest. You could count on him to donate generously to any worthy cause.

One day Scoop vanished into thin air. The consensus was that it was foul play. For the first 3 days, law enforcement of several jurisdictions, tracking dogs, helicopters, Colorado Bureau of Investigation hunted high and low, and the town mourned deeply.

As the investigation deepened, it was found out that $1.5 million of client’s money had vanished. Scoop also had eight kids and a wife back east that no one knew about. One story after another about the inner secrets of Scoop emerged.

Overnight the Town’s attitude changed. They had a paradigm (reality) shift. Were they disloyal flip-floppers in Treason to this bond of friendship ? No! More data had come to light on who Scoop REALLY was. The 3rd dynamic of the town no longer subscribed to Scoop as a friend. More and more came forward to reveal that which had been so well covered up.

And so it is with C of S and Miscavige. I joined a group. I thought I had joined an ethical group. But as C of S morphed into something else and more and more revelations came to light and I withdrew my allegiance on a paradigm shift, of no longer supporting what I THOUGHT was our group. Do I consider this treasonous? Absolutely not.  I am like the town of Breckenridge finding out more by the day on lawyer Scoop…

But the main point I want to make in all of this is that while I was in, like all the others that were in for decades, we were the Goose that laid Golden Eggs for the Church.

I find a lot can be said of that old Aesop Fable about the goose that laid the golden eggs.

The hen was a mystical creature that laid a golden egg every day. Now an effective boss or manager sees that he has a real asset. When he has a continuity of golden eggs being laid for him, he’s getting what he wants ~ not one time, but day after day after day. A clever manager would see the goose was cared for, rewarded, given good nurturing, given every care to make the asset (the goose) continue to produce.
A clever boss or manager would hardly beat up and abuse and slaughter that which was producing golden eggs.

When DM took over after LRH’s death, he had many gooses that could lay golden eggs. The sheer wealth of the technology, the green on white volumes and a various stratas and levels of management which could guarantee expansion and stability. Quite aside from Watchdog Committee there was CMO Int, Exec Strata, a corps of evaluators and a huge bunch of management tools.  There were hardworking, dedicated SO members willing to work for pennies all hours of the day and night for LRH.

DM killed these golden geese:

• Long term senior Managers with great and hard-won experience — all declared.
• All former Commanding Officers of CMO Int were declared.
• Senior Tech Terminals, Senior CS INT office decimated.
• Much of CMO GOLD and then GOLD staff decimated — on and on and on…
• The former Mission Networks, the Field Auditors which now amount to a tiny handful…
• All of Scientology Marketing
• Translations Unit as per recent article by Misha

You know the purges, I don’t need to repeat.

You know the brutality on single dedicated individuals…Debbie Cook, Heber Jentzsch, Jeff Hawkins, Dan Koon, Steve Hall, Mike Rinder, Tom deVocht and so on.

But DM sought out more instant golden eggs. So these “STATUSES” were invented for tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes even hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I remember a restaurant that used to serve the BEST clam chowder. From 11am onwards there was a line to get in to get a lunch table. Clients would not only eat it there, but take buckets to go. Business was out the roof. One day the restaurant sold, new management came in and kept the same menu. Except they cut corners by really watering down the clam chowder. The Shrimp fried rice has barely any shrimp — all rice. For the first month the revenues were good, because it cost them so little to make, they were using HALF the ingredients. They were altering the formulas that worked by short cuts and short changing the public. The client base dwindled away and lost faith in the new management giving them a good soup. The trust was broken. It was no longer a place to eat. Less and less public appeared at the restaurant til it was on the verge of folding. They had killed the Goose. The Goose that laid the Golden Eggs for the business.

I believe many of us who post on this blog were Golden Geese for the Church in many ways ~~serious donations, or contributions, such as years of labor, working in the trenches, producing for the church for long periods of time.. I would state categorically that Marty, Mike Rinder, Haydn James, Steve Hall, Jeff Hawkins, Amy and Matt, Dan Koon and tons of others on this blog were PURE GOLD to the Church. Huge contributions for decades. Many many more that come together on this blog contributed big time.

The Golden Geese are no longer there…

More and more data about Lawyer Scoop gets revealed daily…

The Church was not what we thought it was

Karen de la Carriere
(Karen #1)

  1. Tony DePhillips permalink
    September 19, 2010 1:28 am

    Nice article Karen!!

    A great summation of the suppressive waste of the “church”.

    I guess it could be considered that my wife and I were a couple of these geese. I got into Scn in 1978 and my wife a few years later. We donated a lot of money which I won’t go into here, but we were Patrons with the IAS and Humanitarians witht the Idle Org and did TONS of Bridge services.

    One of the things that shocked me when we resigned was how casual it all seemed to be from the “churchs” position. If it was my company and a large and important client wanted to stop doing buisness with me I would FIND OUT what went wrong and handle the hell out of it. I wouldn’t tell that customer that they were being suppressive and make them wrong and say “Well if you ask my forgiveness then maybe I will remedy these so called wrongs you talk about”. NO customer would ever stand for that! And I won’t either!!
    Thanks for being there and communicating Karen!! You are a lovely thetan.


    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 19, 2010 9:57 pm

      Dear Tony,

      Thanks for this input. I do not subscribe to the belief that they can

      1) Keep the Donations
      2) Declare you and kick you out.

      The old saying “having your cake and eating it too.”
      If they are going to issue an SP declare, it is beholden to them to refund the donations.

      I consider it a complete rip off to keep the $$$$$ to enjoy funds given, while severing the connections of the departed Scientologist.

      Public are not told when they pay in $$$ to train, that all CERTS can be canceled in a New York minute. So what you are paying into is precarious whichever way you look at it. Everything you have paid into and contributed to for years can be nullified in a heart’s beat for reading the web, for befriending those who have spoken out BUT THEY KEEP THE MONEY.

      NOT ONLY THAT, for decades the church has billed FREELOADER BILLS. AFTER they rake in the BUCKS for these services, they then cancel and make invalid all training done and paid for in an SP declare ! You pay pay pay and your certs are worthless.

      All spiritual states and rights in CoS and training are revocable at any time.

      Cancellation of what you put years in to attain.

      But C of S keeps the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

      Anyone care to comment ?

      • September 20, 2010 1:40 am

        Yes, there is a policy about refunds. If someone is unhappy for whatever reason and wants a refund, you refund them their money and send them on their way.

        As for someone being declared an sp and keeping their money, well that doesn’t hold water because in that case, the policy above would come into play, the sp would ask for a refund and you give it to them.

        What they are doing here is out exchange , criminal as well as suppressive.

        It seems to me, that they have reversed it so that if you are labeled by them an sp, you have no rights and you are screwed and too bad ha ha on you we’re keeping your money and there is not a damn thing you can do.

        Again, suppressive.

        It’s not scientology and it’s not the church that LRH created nor the church of scientology I joined in 1986.

        This is the church that has morphed into DM’s church.
        Under his leadership.

        But I believe there is something you can do. That would be a class action lawsuit. There is power in numbers.

      • Tony DePhillips permalink
        September 20, 2010 2:53 am

        I agree.
        Now if we could only get the courts to duplicate this.

      • September 20, 2010 5:55 am

        you can get the courts to duplicate it, you just need to find the right attorney/attorneys that will take on the case and fight on your behalf.

        I’m sure with a class action lawsuit, there is an attorney or team of attorneys out there willing to go the distance. Willing to fight suppression and tyranny.
        Willing to do the unthinkable. You know a braveheart thing.

  2. Independent Scientologist permalink
    September 19, 2010 2:08 am

    My wife is not as plump as a goose, but she used to be golden.

    She was a hard-working, award-winning, highly-commended staff staff auditor, pushing fellow staff members up the Bridge, up the Bridge, up the Bridge. Over fifty Grade Chart steps or program completions in one year. She was told that she raising the tone level of the entire staff. That she was giving staff something regarding Bridge progress that they hadn’t had in a long time: Hope! But my wife is not doing that anymore.

    Told that she needed to show up at AOLA for a bout of suppressive-style sec checking, despite her stellar production record, for the unspeakable crime of having some thoughts that run counter to the Golden Age of Tech and the Ideal Org campaign, she woke up and chose instead to become an Independent Scientologist. And then she promptly woke me up!

    I didn’t know what to expect when I decided to step away from the church, but I’ve been very pleasantly surprised at the quality of the tech terminals who are active in the independent field.

    Thank God DM is not really killing his Golden Gooses, mostly he is just shoving them out the door to the welcoming embrace of fellow Geese!

    So his loss is the independent field’s gain.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 19, 2010 10:32 pm

      Independent Scientologist :

      Thank God DM is not really killing his Golden Gooses, mostly he is just shoving them out the door to the welcoming embrace of fellow Geese!

      So his loss is the independent field’s gain.

      Yes indeed. Every atrocity, every brutality, every smash and pulverization of an auditor empowers the Independent field.

      Thank you for sharing the story that an award winning STAFF STAFF auditor was lost due to having THOUGHTS counter to the Golden Age of Technical Bullshit !

      In recent weeks some “under the radar” folk sent me copies of my SP declare.
      The Church was too chicken to mail me my copy, contrary to policy, the SP delcare was done “under the table” as a whispering campaign.
      A bunch of codswollop. All this rah rah about my squirrelling yet they happily sucked $250,000 out of me in very recent years up to the date of my contacting Marty and Mike.
      So why were they taking my money if I was what they stated ?

      But a laughable point in the DECLARE it is that I REFUSED to do the BASICS and go back on course to study from scratch what I had already excelled in ! “She was solicited to study standard LRH tech and she flatly refused


      I refused to study DM edited version of the basic books that I had audited flawlessly with LRH CSing or reviewing my pc folders !!!!!

      Not only was I ORDERED in an authoritarian tone to get on course for Basics, but I was chitted obnoxiously by ASHO (an Org I have never EVER used) and ORDERED to report to Ethics for not being on course.

      Let me tell you…that went over like a dead balloon.

      I am interested in other stories on ENFORCED “Get on COURSE to STUDY Basics”

  3. Your humble servant permalink
    September 19, 2010 2:53 am

    Thank you, Karen #1, for a very nice story! I feel as you do about David Miscavige and the current Church of Scientology as he has molded it. This individual is an unauthorized interloper who by persuasion, conniving, and bullying (mostly by the latter two) has expelled the good, talented, social, and self-sacrificing heroes who dedicated their lives to forwarding the noble purposes that were set forth in Scientology: personal betterment and world without insanity, without criminals, and without war. Now, entirely under DM’s thumb, the Church of Scientology scarcely resembles what it once was and can hardly be called a spiritual entity at all! Originally, the C of S was never about money, although ignorant or ill-intentioned detractors accused it of that. Today, it seems it is largely, if not exclusively about that.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 19, 2010 10:58 pm

      Your Humble Servant says

      …….can hardly be called a spiritual entity at all!

      Some of the more horrific DIRTY TRICKS from the so called “CHURCH” have been and are being revealed to me day by day. What the Church will do to an enemy is beyond anything any group in the US does out of vengeance.

      I am going to quote an excerpt from Jesse Prince, former D/IG RTC
      Many intelligence operations were run on Mayo, Nelson and his groups. There was no lack of people to run the operations because contrary to the party line of “The Guardians Office was criminal and gotten rid of…”, many of the people that were in the old GO were now part of a new forming organization called Office of Special Affairs.

      Again, this story is about John Nelson. Rick Aznaran, Chief of Security for Miss Cabbage’s new International Management ran an operation on John Nelson that nearly cost John his life. John was traveling in Hong Kong on business. Unbeknownst to John, Rick Aznaran and a newly hired private investigator were watching Johns every move.

      Rick and his PI had very high end bugging devices as well as the standard breaking and entering tools. The breaking and entering tools are fully described in Scientology sacred scriptures seized by US FBI agents when they raided Big Blue in 1977.

      John had a hotel room in Hong Kong and at one point left to meet with business contacts. When John left his hotel room, Rick and his PI friend broke into Johns room and placed bugging devices in lamp stands and the telephone. Rick figured out how to handle the problem with John once and for all. In Hong Kong, if a person is caught with a large amount of heroin, the person caught gets the death sentence.

      The PI with Rick called me from Hong Kong and told me that Rick had planted a large amount of heroin in John’s room. Rick was arranging for the Hong Kong police to raid John’s room because John was a drug dealer. The PI wanted to make sure I understood what was going on here and the PI wanted NOTHING to do with getting an innocent person framed and killed. The PI said he was on his way back to the states and Rick would have to do his dirty work alone.

      I remember at the time being horrified that this could even be happening. I myself had been involved with Rick illegally bugging other people but never had we ever done anything to get anyone killed. I told Rick it was the wrong thing to do and to get his ass back home as fast as he could. Miss Cabbage was told what was happening and agreed Rick should come back home because too many people knew what the op was as I had already told many people about it.

      Too many people knew about it. Too many people wanted nothing to do with it.

      That is the level of morals and ethics you find in the criminal cult of Scientology.

  4. Thought Provoking permalink
    September 19, 2010 3:04 am

    Great analogy, Karen. I’m glad to see you writing more articles. Imagine where Scientology would be today if the power formula had really been applied after LRH’s death?

    When I rejoined staff in 2002 prepared to make this my final career destination, it was to spread LRH’s wonderful technology. Shortly after joining, my org went into Ideal Org mode which is when DM tech really took over. Within a year, I watched all the theta drain from the group and saw the robot machine form. I actually tried to keep step but in the end found it too cold and militant.

    Each year I would think about doing my A to E and found that I just couldn’t reach for the cold, hard entity called the church.

    Eventually I discovered golden geese flocking on the outside and I’ve been smiling ever since, never looking back. Gotta love them geese!

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 19, 2010 11:35 pm

      Thought Provoking:

      You nailed it.

      Imagine where Scientology would be today if the Power Formula had really been applied after LRH’s death.

      The line in the P/L is “Always push power in the direction of someone on who’s power you depend.”

      Of course Miscavige does the reverse. He has pulverized his top execs into blithering propitiating puppy dogs. He beat and beat and punched and committed violent assaults on many, even the write of this Blog ~~ Jeff Hawkins.

      He demoralizes auditors and creates FEAR and TERROR in auditors that do not comply with his SQUIRREL tech.

      No wonder no auditors can be made for Super Power !
      No wonder no one can graduate up the ranks in training !
      The Gold Cameraman demolished LRH trustedSenior CS INT Ray Mithoff and runs tech lines when he was a failed CLass IV ~~ never able to graduate his internship.

  5. September 19, 2010 7:40 am

    I know, non scientologists reading this would be their first thought, how could you belong to this group for all those years and not know.

    I too, thought that, how could we all not know. The truth of the matter is, we were lied to by the people that run the church. A good example of this is Lisa Mcpherson. Miscavige spinned the story and left out the truth. This is his operating basis, up and till now it has worked for him.

    Here is a man that took hard earned parishoner money to renovate LRH’s living quarters, under the guise that it was for LRH, a tribute, but the truth is, so he could live in luxury.

    Here is a man that vacationed with Tom Cruise none the less at LRH’s living quarters which is not open to the public.

    Here is a man that sent his own wife away to the RPF instead of just divorcing her, like normal people. But instead he wants to find something on her, so he can blackmail her in the future into silence.

    Here is a man that would do this to his own wife, of course he did it to others and continues to this day.

    We are told that the money for IAS donations goes to help secure our religion, but in fact it goes to fund lawyers and private investigators to win litigation, he created. Yes using other people’s money to get him out of lawsuits that he created in the first place. It’s so easy for him. I would like to see him actually use his own money for once instead of using parshioner’s.

    • Cool Observer permalink
      September 19, 2010 6:49 pm

      Was Hubbard a model husband? His first two wives spoke of constant physical and mental abuse they had to endure. Hubbard tried to frame wife #1 for alleged communist activities – a serious allegation in the McCarthy era. He married wive #2 before he got divorced from wive #1, when he got sick of this relationship he tried to convince her to commit suicide as a divorce would tarnish his good name. His third wive took the fall for Operation Snow White, when the FBI came knocking, Hubbard vanished and Mary Sue went to jail.

      LRH had lots of respect for women, as lomg as they knew their place: “A society in which women are taught anything but the management of a family, the care of men, and the creation of the future generation is a society which is on its way out.” … [A New Slant on Life]

      • Maria permalink
        September 20, 2010 12:10 am

        The paragraph from New Slant on Life reads very differently if you use the definition of the idiom “anything but.”

        anything but: By no means; not at all: I was anything but happy about going.

        It makes a great deal more sense when you use the right idiom and definition, especially considering that LRH opened the door to female managers, with no gender preferences for postings, long before women were considered to be suitable for such positions in the workplace. He was posting women to executive positions in the 1960s, pretty much unheard of at that time.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        September 20, 2010 7:13 am

        @ Maria

        If it should be interpreted the way you see it, why was this paragraph edited out in the newer prints of the book? And yes, he did promote women, but he made a clear distinction between the wog world and the Scientology bubble. Inside the bubble their were thetans instead of bodies, so it didn’t make any difference what gender the MEST body was. Even small children were to be treated “equally”, like adults. Just because you want to believe that LRH was a champion for equal rights doesn’t make it true.

      • Maria permalink
        September 21, 2010 2:28 am

        Cool Observer: I have no idea why DM deleted that paragraph (other than to generate new booksale statistics) just as I have no idea why DM deleted the entire book Notes on the Lectures, numerous policy letters, and so on. He claims that he is “fixing” things and has all kinds of explanations — but he seems to be a little slippery with being entirely truthful.

        As far as LRH treating women this way inside the “bubble” of Scientology — that was his realm of interest.

        I guess you just plain do not want to consider any other inerpretation. S’okay with me but please, don’t try jamming it down my throat. I’ve had a belly full of that from C of S staff doing it “for my own good.”

      • Cool Observer permalink
        September 21, 2010 3:19 pm


        I think you misunderstood what I implied: I was not referring to the fact that Miscavige constantly changes things, this paragraph was edited out because it is simply outrageous by today’s standards and could cause a PR flap.

        Just because I disagree with you on a certain issue does not mean I’m trying to jam it down your throat. As you said, you experienced this all the time while in Scientology, but you can’t compare this to to “the real world”. Outside of Scientology this is simply an exchange of opinions. Outside a different view is often meant to be constructive, unfortunately Scientology has taught its members to always view it as an attack.

        Here is another quote from the chapter “A woman’s Creativity”, this chapter has also vanished from the newer editions.

        “The historian can peg the point where a society begins its sharpest decline at the instant when women begin to take part, on an equal footing with men, in political and business affairs, since this means that the men are decadent and the women are no longer women. This is not a sermon on the role or position of women; it is a statement of bald and basic fact.”

        You chose to ignore the well documented facts about Hubbard’s treatment of his wives, but it shouldn’t surprise anyone considering his mysogynist rants. That is my point, you can consider it or not, that’s entirely up to you. No personal insult intended.

      • Maria permalink
        September 22, 2010 11:39 am

        Cool Observer: Point taken and apology accepted. I guess I wasn’t very clear about what I am taking exception to. I personally dislike (very much) having LRH quotations thrown at me as “scripture” as if they are the words of God that I must “believe” in or some kind of timeless truth I must accept and somehow justify.

        It has been my observation that LRH’s viewpoints and opinions changed (quite substantially in some cases)over time with continued development of the subject. Who knows, perhaps he was right at the time. It does seem that he was right that the 1950s society, with its “nuclear family,” and the man is “king of his castle” and women have virtually no rights or even respect was definitely on the way out! Good thing? Bad thing? I’m a woman and frankly I wouldn’t want to live in the women’s world of the 1950s. I wouldn’t be allowed to post on this blog without my husband’s permission! I guess I would agree that women shouldn’t be travesties of men (especially very messed up men) and I agree that women should not be demanded to keep working on a cause, aborting their children to do so.

        But it interests me to learn that passages like these that are now “politically incorrect” have been taken out of these materials. It may be an explanation, at least in part, for all the re-writes.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 12:02 am


      Thank you for this.
      The IAS scam is an outrage.
      I was informed of a scammed donor, first name Ben
      He donated somethng like 200K or 300K but he only earned something like 40K per year or less. He was supposed to be an example of how THETA is greater than MEST,
      How do you think he will pay back the credit card companies ?

      He will likely declare bankruptcy. I won’t even tell you what interests rates ALONE are when you owe gigantic sums on credit cards…..

      So ….he might get off the hook in a Bankruptcy. The Church keeps the dough $$$$, and the Bank that lent the $$$ gets burned.

      In the 1990s some pretty intense regging was done for Patron Status. $40,000.

      Parishioners put the $40,000 on a credit card, often billed to American Express who permit a more flexible credit limit with no set limit.

      When they could not pay back AMEX they declared bankruptcy. This happened over and over til American Express saw through the scam and withdrew American Express privileges at FSO.

      I do not know if AMEX privileges were restored, but they were emphatically lost due to the scam.

      I know of a $40,000 donor who was told by the REG, to bill it to AMEX and then declare bankruptcy so that AMEX swallowed the fee.

      The Financial irregularites of scamming the public, scamming Credit Card companies and “flowing power” to the Godfather DM are worthy of the Mob.

      • Tony DePhillips permalink
        September 20, 2010 2:56 am

        They got the Amex privilege back.

  6. Cool Observer permalink
    September 19, 2010 9:52 am

    It’s obvious that Scientology has been self-destructing for quite some time now, but this stems from the obsession with short term gains. If you must remain upstat, you cannot afford to pursue a strategy that will pay off in the long run, policy demands that golden geese are killed on a regular basis.

    Being upstat was doable when Scientology was expanding, unfortunately Hubbard never came up with policy letters cutting his minions some slack. (Correct me if I’m wrong) The mantra has always been the same: If you apply te tech correctly, success is guaranteed. So Miscavige never had a choice but to enforce production and never allow any excuses – not that he’s losing any sleep over this ‘dilemma’, he obviously enjoys the misery of others.

    When I read your essay about the people of Breckenridge, how their perception of a revered man slowly changed, I instantly had to think about Gerry Armstrong, who was asked to write the autobiography of LRH and gradually found out that everything he thought he knew about the man were just lies. Of course he was fair gamed when he brought up this issue, Armstrong sued ond won.
    How ironic that the name of the judge was Paul Breckenridge, who called Scientology “sinsiter, corrupt and dangerous”, its schizophrenia and paranoia being a reflection of its founder LRH.

    • September 19, 2010 7:30 pm

      ” (Correct me if I’m wrong) The mantra has always been the same: If you apply te tech correctly, success is guaranteed. So Miscavige never had a choice but to enforce production and never allow any excuses – not that he’s losing any sleep over this ‘dilemma’, he obviously enjoys the misery of others.”

      Sure I’ll correct you.

      Obviously there is a leap of logic here by conflating “enforcing production” with “apply(ing) te (sic) tech correctly”. They are two different things.

      The only one who’d think they were the same would be Miscavige or someone with a similar mindset.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        September 20, 2010 7:02 am

        @ RJ

        My point was rather simple: Since the tech is allegedly infallible, you have no excuse for not meeting targets. That’s why Miscavige can demand something impossible and accuse his staff for failing to make it go right.That’t why he can make their life a living hell and accuse them for not doing it right, because Scientology is supposed to be fun.

      • September 20, 2010 8:55 pm

        Cool Observer,

        Who said the tech was infallible?

        There is a difference between workable and infallible.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        September 20, 2010 11:55 pm

        @ RJ

        It seems like you’re splitting hairs. Scientologists are told that if they apply the tech exactly like Hubbard intended it, success is guaranteed. If the results are not achieved, it’s always the fault of the Scientologist. He didn’t do it right, he’s out-ethics, he’s got overts or evil purposes. The tech is never at fault. That is not just workable, that’s infallible. I’m sure you have read KSW many times, Hubbard couldn’t have been more specific about how infallible his tech is, provided all the necessary steps are taken to ensure it’s kept pure. He wrote thatScientology’s ultimate success is assured if the tech is applied correctly. I don’t think it has ever been allowed to question this claim. That has always amounted to heresy.

      • September 21, 2010 12:31 am

        There is a distinct difference between “infallible”:

        incapable of making mistakes or being wrong : doctors are not infallible.
        • never failing; always effective : infallible cures.
        • (in the Roman Catholic Church) credited with papal infallibility : for an encyclical to be infallible the pope must speak ex cathedra.
        infallibly |-blē| adverb
        ORIGIN late 15th cent.: from French infaillible or late Latin infallibilis, from in- ‘not’ + Latin fallere ‘deceive.’

        And “workable” second definition of Oxford American:

        2 capable of producing the desired effect or result; practicable; feasible : a workable peace settlement.

        You like Miscavige seemed fixated on KSW #1 which is only one PL while there are others like for example “Safeguarding Technology” where it states quite clearly and succinctly that Scientology tech ain’t perfect.

        Nor is automotive technology.

        However if the mechanic told you he “fixed” your car and you attempted to drive it out of the garage yet it stalled before you made it to the street would you blame the cars failure to run properly on:

        a) Gottlieb Daimler

        b) the techniques of auto repair

        c) the mechanic.

        Seems you have a double standard.

      • Cool Observer permalink
        September 21, 2010 7:53 am

        @ RJ

        I won’t enter a word clearung contest with you, as I said before: My point is simple. Scientologists must produce, they must be upstat, because otherwise they can’t sneeze without a chop. Hubbard didn’t write a PL reminding execs that some circumstances prevent a staffer from making the targets. He gave many reasons why staffers fail and how they have to handle this – or how they have to be handled. I don’t dispute that there’s a diffenrence between workable and infallible, but in Scientology “workable” has always been interpreted as “infallible”. Or maybe I’m wrong…Jeff, what do you think?

      • September 21, 2010 9:00 pm

        As you can see Cool Observer,

        I have never interpreted workable as infallible.

        So obviously you along with any Scientology executive who”always does” make such an interpretation needs extensive word clearing.

        Like for instance David Miscavige.

        Also please name one organization or institution anywhere that doesn’t have to produce an exchangeable product of some kind (excluding Government of course) in order to survive?

        Also let’s see how long you’d last on a job (excluding a Government job of course) where you didn’t produce a valuable final product of some kind.

        Again it seems you have double standardosis.

        What’s a matter Cool Observer?

        Can’t you fight your own battles?

  7. Fidelio permalink
    September 19, 2010 11:45 am

    Dear Karen,

    yes and yes and yes…: The Church is not what we thought it was.

    And I have to add: Hubbard was and is not what I thought he was/is. Time and again, I wind up with Hubbard as the true source of the mess we have to witness.

    Thank you for the tremedous work you do!!

  8. September 19, 2010 11:59 am

    Karen, I think outsiders looking upon Scientology even before the current stable period of David Miscavige discarding virtually all persons, around and beneath him, over the decades, I think that some research into the longevity of the leaders in positions ought be done.

    My first unjust removal was when Jon Horwich, bless him in many ways, decided he would have me replaced as the senior course sup in the admin area at the FLB, back in the summer of 1981.

    He commented to me that LRH would have had me removed FAR earlier.

    Me personally, my time had come, I had been on post in the admin course sup area since 1977, and my time to get the ax was decided, NOT by a David Miscavige, but because I believe already, LRH had set the mold for this rather quick replacement fad for positions, already, for the first decade of the Sea Org.

    I witnessed all during my earliest years in the Sea Org, a rather heartless replacement attitude for the top executive positions.

    In 1979ish, or 1980ish, I had Dianna Hubbard Horwich as a sometimes student on the OEC, again BEFORE DM’s reign. I thus got a number of opportunities to chat with Dianna about her opinions, while giving her spot checks on her materials, etc.

    In one conversation, she mentioned that one of the problems was that no one wanted to BE the senior executive positions, because the senior positions looked like guaranteed targets for being blamed, and getting shot off post.

    That certainly rung true, since the parade of people who held the CO FSO post from the time I joined the FSO, Dec 75, until I left the FSO to move into the Flag Bu (and into the Exec College course room under Linda McCarthy and under Al Baker who mentored me), I had seen at least 4 Commanding Officers FSO come and go: Tony Dunleavy, Bill Robertson, Greg Wilhere, Carl Carlson, and Brian Patrick for a tiny stretch, and Frannie Harris (Freedman), and I forget who else.

    This was 7 different Commanding Officers for the FSO in less than 5 years.

    No, I think there is an inclination, like everyone else had stated, and I think honestly, there is, like Dianna said, a longer deeper trend in Scientology history of a more rapid volitile turnover for the top people.

    Agreed, like the Dane Tops writeup of 1982 ish (Dane is a fake name for some Scientology public, who themselves I think is a bit of a UFO nutter today, look at his 2009 interview by a conspiratorial UFO alien cloning cult that thinks the Illuminati are controlling world events, Dane’s thus pretty off in the bigger picture in my opinion thus), but Dane’s famous or somewhat forgotten writeup of the actual period PRIOR to DM taking power, I think is important.

    The history of this getting rid of good people, LRH did it. A lot of people were unjustly canned by LRH.

    He set the mold for the relatively FAST turnover of the top top managers.

    DM’s trashed the whole mess, and I think Dane’s opinions in his 1982 writeup are mainly accurate, some details are obviously him guessing and not knowing the details, like his ideas about the young messengers is generally correct, they were NOT expert managers, the early WDC members, with a few execeptions, and earliest Exec Strata members (older Sea Org members made up the original Exec Strata both the Flag Exec Strata and then the Int Base/LA recombination setup of the Exec Strata), but there is a more complex picture of WHY Scientology’s management top structures have had problems.

    I’d say the Human Resources department, HCO Div 1, has been faulty.

    Too much “hitting” and generally not enough “hatting” and I think LRH himself was NOT Mr. Best HCO Div 1 Dept of Personnel that ever walked the planks, in my opinion. He laid a LOT of eggs his own damn self.

    And if Dianna could talk free, I goddamn would LOVE to hear Dianna Hubbard talk her mind about this.

    I feel, honestly, Karen, that there’s a whole big problem of people today NOT really looking just a little goddamn deeper, into MORE of the complexities of what actually happened.

    Sure Mr. David Miscavige has generally dominated and made wholesale messes and directed more decimation of the good people, over the years.

    I think he’s sort of kept in place certain people, almost in a Games Condition, where they were NOT allowed to move on, but sort of goaded BACK onto their positions, only to fail dismally in DM’s eyes, sort of like a cyclical torturous top executive life.

    I recommend people reading Dane Tops’ writeup, but also realize Dane’s a UFO Illuminati nutter, but most of what Dane says is true.

    And I wish we had someone like Dianna, to give her two cents about the management top people shuffle, and waste of the top Class 12s, for instance, in the PRE David Miscavige era.

    Scientology’s historical focus on David Miscavige as the bad guy, while he deserves the lion’s share for these last 3 decades agreed, but the story of Scientology’s messing with its Golden Geese staffers precedes David, and it’s a more complex history, which I for one HOPE MORE people can be stirred to pipe up and do some of their own books or chapters about what they firsthand lived through, and name names! Those names WON’T be all David Miscavige.

    Love you Karen, hope more ex “biggies” like you would go into MORE detail of life in the pre Miscavige period, to put some real balance, in my opinion, to everything.

    The outside world knows DM’s a bully.

    But Scientology history is NOT all to be blamed on Mr. Miscavige. He’s just the dominate story, and he likely doesn’t mind being the dominant story, in his sociological depths, he likely appreciates being considered so highly.

    More telling, is how we all sort of adapted to DM, and let him do his business.

    When ex Sea Org people get to that level of self/staff realization, I think this whole conversation will get a little more interesting and get a little beyond this DM bashing phase.


    • September 19, 2010 12:09 pm
      Dane Tops letter of 1982ish I believe
      Dane Tops interview of 2009, showing he’s clearly a bit off, UFO nutter Illuminati conspiracy believer

      But his observations of the pre DM period when things were getting cleaned up, only to quickly swing the other way and DM really started his smashing spree that went on decades, Dane’s observations are some of the best I’ve read.


    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 7:04 am

      Chuck says..

      ” And get a little beyond DM bashing…”
      ” And a broader discussion than DM, DM, DM”

      Chuck…read my little story on druggie BRUCE and LRH care and expertise to assist him come out of his drug masses.

      Now look at DM. Do you ever believe DM would call for a pc folder to order something to HELP the PC? To enhance the PC ? To ask Ray Mithoff to draw up a program to DO something for betterment ?

      Heck NO. This is the monumental difference between DM and LRH.
      DM drives people into the deepest depths of their case by throwing them into confinement and asking for CRIMES after HOUR after HOUR.

      What would that do to a case ? He has created the mother of all squirrel actions. SEANCES where the mob beat and attack the newbie in SP Hole demanding CRIMES.

      This is sadistic and abusive. Like everything else DM has done on Technical lines ~~ it is to HARM the pc.

      LRH was not a perfect man. But by golly he did want to sincerely help the pc.

      What can you say about Miscavige in comparison ?

    • September 20, 2010 7:38 am

      Hey Chuck – I know what you are talking about. I was on staff prior to DM’s reign, and it was crazy. DM is the current problem, but he is also a symptom. I know there is value in Scientology tech. I also know that there has been too much abuse of staff and public. It is very contradictory that the Tech is great, but the resulting organizations and groups are crazy – or more accurately, that people let crazy people get their way.

      I had a very deep fear of all this crap happening when I was doing my levels in the mid-seventies. Considering that every major religious and, for that matter, political organization goes through periods of upheaval, why would Scientology be any different? We would hope that people without banks would do a better job – and maybe so, if we had only tried it.

      Personally, I abhorred the SO since I heard about it. It is so contrary to what Scientology is about, I wondered what LRH was thinking? Still do. In any event, whatever future Scientology activities I do will be sans org, and sans SO. But I still love, respect, and apply Scientology tech. Go figure!

      • September 21, 2010 12:52 am

        I don’t know GH.

        The SO was a solution to a problem that itself became a problem.

        Good ol’ problems and solutions.

        Just like the GO.

        Proves the Ol’ man wasn’t infallible.

        Yet he left us a tech that was and still is extremely workable.

        One that even uncovers the basis of even the discoverers own aberations.

        Just like anything else in this wacky world.

        One can always say:

        “It seemed like a good idea at the time.”

  9. September 19, 2010 1:32 pm

    [audio src="" /]

    This above 1987 BBC radio interview show you hear a whole slew of people close to LRH over the years, comment, pro and con, LRH and LRH’s life.

    I wish if any of these people, I know some are alive, but the older generation, I wish had said more and been recorded.

    This was quite a good BBC show, I don’t agree with the conclusions, especially about LRH’s intelligence history, since I think he met intelligence people in his years, and read about intelligence tactics, and the books LRH put on the GO hatting checksheets, those books I think he read some of which in his pulp fiction days, and in the 1950s when he was being hounded by various agencies.

    But this above DOES show when LRH left Saint Hill to go to Las Palmas, that moment caused a huge stir and a very large loss of followers then ensued in the following years.

    I think the impact of LRH’s dramatic personal actions on Scientology HAVE to be more detailed and discussed.

    I hope this DM focused phase doesn’t blot out the rest of the history of the movement, and I don’t think it can.

    Anyone truly trying to put Hubbard and Scientology in full context, have got to keep reading, and listening to what others who worked with Hubbard have to say from their viewpoints.

    I’m for a much broader discussion than sticking to just DM, DM, DM.

    I’d love to hear MORE about YOUR times on the Apollo, and your interactions with these other people, like those who spoke in this 1987 radio show, sometime, Karen.

    Best, Chuck

    • September 19, 2010 7:54 pm

      I agree with you Chuck.

      There is much more complexity to the scene than the “lone Miscavige theory” and lord knows the Ol’man was no angel and he wasn’t perfect.

      He had his faults. Just we all do.

      What I can’t stand.

      Are those from the comfort of their glass houses who choose to throw stones.

      That said.

      Dane Tops write up is pretty interesting but does as you suggest go over the edge at times.

      One way of covering up the truth is in the words Churchill when he ordered MI5 and 6 to establish a disinformation and active measures department known as XX was to “give it a body guard of lies.”

      This is why some of the facts about what happened to Scientology. Beginning in the late ’70’s with the mysterious death of Quentin , the raid on the GO and the eventual take over of the Church are couched in tales of UFOs and the Illuminati.

      Also this is why there is a site that asserts the Church was taken over by the IRS.

      Of course somewhere guarded by the bodyguards of disinformation and misinformation is the truth.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 6:13 am

      Thanks Chuck

      Chuck asked :
      I’d love to hear MORE about YOUR times on the Apollo, and your interactions with these other people, like those who spoke in this 1987 radio show, sometime, Karen.

      Okay, you asked for it. An Apollo Story.

      A Pc arrived from Chicago, lets call him BRUCE. He was a high high druggie. In the drug lists, the pc is asked how many TRIPS or incidents on each drug.

      Bruce’s list ran like this

      Ecstacy 2912 times
      LSD 4982 times
      STP 3777 time
      Mushroom hallucogenics 5449 times on and on and on

      You get the picture. He was my PC and could not run Dianetics. On the first command he doped off and fell asleep. There was almost nothing I could do to wake him up. He red-tagged at the Examiner daily ~~ of course, he got NO AUDITING. All red tagged folders went to LRH immediately, no ifs or buts to see what went wrong and why.

      LRH met me on Promenade Deck. He asked if I got the significance of such a heavy drug list and we went to his research room. Bruce’s folder was right on his desk. I sat opposite LRH as he focused 100% of his attention units on the folder and how to get the pc to WIN. I fully and absolutely EXPERIENCED the personal care, the empathy, the deep LRH desire to make the pc in front of him WIN with auditing. He cared. He pushed aside all Evals and other traffic in his office and focused on the pc folder.

      He lifted his head and told me. “I know ~~ I have a bright idea. We will make him SWEAT OUT. If any residual drugs are in the body, let’s see if sweating it out makes a difference !” I was somewhat foggy on what “SWEAT OUT” meant.

      Bruce was CSed by LRH to put on swimming trunks and do deckwork 5 hours a day, heavy heavy exercise ~~ we were in the Mediterranean and it was summer. There was no Sauna. There was no exercise gym machines. There was nothing…we were on the high seas. LRH made sure the MLO gave lots of vitamins and cal mag to Bruce daily. Bruce did this for 6 weeks. He got a nice tan, he became alert and perky. He did not come back to me as a pc because my line-up was full, he was re-assigned to Quentin Hubbard. Quentin was my daily morning Twin for daily morning TRs in the Interneship. I asked Quentin before morning TRs how Bruce was running.
      I found out that Bruce was running R3R (Dianetics) without doping off !!!.. He was winning !

      This story is the story of the very first PURIFICATION Rundown ever run. It was primitive. It was done on the High Seas. It was done because LRH cared that the pc would WIN. When BRUCE left the Flagship Apollo he was hardly recognizable from the drugged up sluggish dopey looking guy of 3 months earlier.

      The Purification Rundown greatly evolved after this. But this was the research PILOT, this was the test case than then later rolled out as PURIFICATION Rundown.
      I saw and experienced how much LRH cared for the next guy and wanted then to improve and advance. You would have to have been with me in LRH’s office to see LRH’s attitude and caring and diligence for this one druggie to duplicate why I say I saw and experienced the good and exemplary side of LRH.

      • Anonymous permalink
        September 20, 2010 7:06 pm

        Karen are you sure about those numbers? This would mean that for 21 years this PC would have to take one drug every day.

      • Raindog permalink
        September 20, 2010 8:46 pm

        Karen your write-up reminded of one thing. The end of daily TRs or any TRs other than on TRs courses. While on the metering course I requested a round of BBing to help with a problem I was having. I was told no. I had done Pro TR’s and if I had done them correctly my TRS would always be in. lol

      • September 20, 2010 9:13 pm

        Picky, picky anon.

        The numbers could represent the number of times released on the drug not the actual number of times taken.

        Also most of the heavy druggies I’ve known as a drug counsellor don’t restrict themselves to doing drugs on a daily basis.

        Besides what does it matter?

        As far as I’m concerned it’s a possible “straw man”.

        The point I believe Karen was trying to make was that Ron showed actual empathy, care and concern about the case in question.

        Qualities Miscavige completely lacks.

      • Karen#1 permalink
        September 20, 2010 10:10 pm


        No accuracy in the numbers. I obviously would not remember accurately numbers I jotted down over 30 years ago, on one partcular pc. I was trying to give an overview.

        Just recall that all his trips were 4 figure numerically ~~~ even he himself could have given completely wrong numbers due to his foggy memory.

        But the point is that LRH wanted him to advance from his drug addicted state to a coherent, much more in present time human being and BRUCE was revitalized and left the Apollo in 1000% better shape than how he was on arrival.

      • Karen#1 permalink
        September 20, 2010 10:29 pm


        Thanks much for duplicating the spirit in which the story was written

      • Your humble servant permalink
        September 21, 2010 1:27 am

        Karen # 1,

        A marvelous, wonderful story!


      • Freedom Fighter permalink
        September 22, 2010 3:48 am

        Karen, thank you for posting this article, thank you for posting this story that so captures the essence, IMO, of LRH, and thank you for what you are doing. I get you. I totally get you.

      • Lawrence permalink
        October 1, 2010 10:12 pm


        I, specifically remember the first time I heard you speak highly of L. Ron Hubbard this way, it was in person.

        I was 18, in New York City and went to the Flag Class XII World Tour Event at the Americana Hotel on 6th Avenue.

        You were the guest speaker and also Flag’s “Auditor Of The Year” for that year.

        I remember hearing you say that LRH had “Very high ARC” and that he took “disco lessons”.

        You mentioned at the event that the previous week you delivered “65 Hours of L’s”.

        I hate to sound like a star struck fan but…I have always wished I could have gone Clear with Karen. (SOB) – [sic]

        You were the most amazing auditor in the world way back then at that event and you have changed little. Still captifying and mystifying but always 100%.

        I have always truly admired you.

        My heart is sometimes still broken that I had to leave Scientology but one cannot continue on a route using technology that one is forced to misapply to achieve wins.

        LRH Was never that way.

  10. Aeolus permalink
    September 19, 2010 1:36 pm

    So, we thought Miscavige was the new watchdog to care for the goose. Turns out, he’s a jackal.

  11. Heather G permalink
    September 19, 2010 2:11 pm

    It must be a very painful thing to realise that what you thought you were a part of does not exist any more. David Miscavige took over an organisation that was dedicated to disseminating Scientology. But his higher goal was to establish himself in a position of power and wealth. So, he sacrificed anyone who might have threatened him. The purges are the clearest evidence that DM’s goal early on was to establish himself at the expense of Scientology.

    The first generation of golden egg-laying geese had to go, because they knew what things were like under Hubbard and could question DM. He couldn’t allow that. Because there was a lot to question. After all, this 22-year-old kid knew next to nothing compared to those who had worked alongside Hubbard for decades. He had to shut them down.

    Then his own second generation of golden egg-laying geese were suppressed and abused. I think his behaviour toward staff during the last 20 years evidences his deteriorating state of mind. He doesn’t care about Scientology. He’s just in it for his own aggrandisement, his own wealth and the sick perverted pleasure he gets out of abusing people.

    Bubba will enjoy his company.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 9:08 am

      Dear Heather,

      Thank you for your note. DM has continued to be maniacal about his power . Nothing even close was ever done by LRH.

      Amy Scobee recently posted ~~
      Do you know that David Miscavige had the Int Management staff do 2 hour confronts of HIS photograph? Pin his mug up on the wall and sit there with perfect TR0, “confronting” it for 2 hours straight. Re-start the 2 hours if you have any reaction (such as dope-off, which was the most common reaction).

      TRO on DM’s image !!! What Wall ? !!!! What new squirrel TRO is this ???

      There have been sadistic orders for M9s to be done on reams DM’s his verbal orders, cross ordering himself, spin city garbage spouted out by DM whimsically all day long. These are not in the Policy letters and INT Execs are not permitted to secure for the night til they are done reading this drivel.

      Absolutely insanity. Sleep deprivation to read the babble out of the mother of all Squirrels ~~ Miscavige.

      There was some flap today in Los Angeles about a Cult family in Palmdale which is one hour North of Los Angeles. They were found safe but KFI radio discussed CULTS in depth with 3 major definitions or common denominators

      1) They are made to suffer SLEEP DEPRIVATION.
      2) They are CUT OFF from all family, friends and non members outside the belief
      3) They are made to feel BAD and SINFUL.

      2) Not one crew member on the Apollo was ever CUT off from family. Mail was not opened and read by the Port Captain’s office or anyone else. On the contrary keeping in good touch with external friends and family was highly encouraged. 3 weeks Annual Leave a matter of course.
      3) No one was EVER EVER asked for CRIMES. Sec checking was less than 5% of auditing done on the Apollo. The rest was Bridge and special Rundowns.

      The Church has morphed into something I did not join. But I am the town of Breckenridge as told in my essay above. And I am finding out more by the day…..

      • Lawrence permalink
        October 1, 2010 11:57 pm

        LRH {Command Intention} on board the research vessel, agreed that production be done by 10:00 P.M. and that all crew get enough rest for the next days work which included the pre-requisite that all onboard should be sessionable!

        No living being on the face of this Earth could find LRH at fault for this common sense. His decisions and efforts culminated with the release of SOLO NOT’s!

        “Along comes DM” {and where this take for granted attitude has entered into the scene that DM is the boss of all Scientology anyway is beyond me} and DM says LRH was too soft and this organization needs an overhaul! WHAT? And now where are the results of this alleged overhaul?

        I have personally witnessed NED auditors in New York City {minimum of 2} being announced as worthy of commendation for staying on course until 4:00 a.m. to make sure they got through their NED courses in time for Friday nights graduation ceremony. Where in the world in LRH society does this go on? No word clearer? No supervisor on? No cramming officer? No examiner? Until 4:00 a.m.?

        The whole while that these 2 “100% standard auditors” were being announced and graduated another student sat in the Academy behind me and played “Tarantela” on his accordian! NYFDN course supervisor Marcia Valente Cruz {OT V} came up to me that night and said “You’re not even supposed to be in here”? Since when can a public person in good standing NOT attend a graduation? How can this be viewed as the prodcution of new auditors?

        Not too mention stories of DM parading a pet terrier around INT Base for the SO to salute. What is this? Scientology? I think it is not Scientology in fact, but the current state of affairs of Scientology under DM.

  12. September 19, 2010 2:18 pm

    [audio src="" /]

    The above is a must listen for Scientology/Hubbard history buffs, of which I am admittedly one, even though I am NOT a supporter of Scientology. I just wish for MORE history of Scientology to be flushed into the public domain for whichever next generation or this generation writer does a more complete full picture of everything.

    My other thoughts which I posted years ago, about the personnel problems of losing “good” people systematically, I think traces even deeper to LRH, unfortunately, and really thus also to actually human nature, since I don’t think all can be blamed even on Hubbard.

    There are sociological and psychological hard wired things in our DNA nature, that make it a given that persons in power act in various ways, and history plays out in a somewhat limited set of patterns.

    Scientology’s got a totalitarian, undemocractic core due to LRH’s Keeping Scientology Working policy, a conscious choice, that even Roy Wallis in his all time brilliant “The Road to Total Freedom” noted that Hubbard took the reigns of his Dianetics, and then his Scientology subjects.

    He prided himself over the years, and it is in his advices to the CMO, of knowing personnel, so that he could approve the postings to the key positions.

    Policy in OEC Vol one lays out how he was very much “on the lines” through the years, for key postings, like ED positions.

    In LRH’s final years, he lays out how he was trying to “turn over” his management hats, and what he left the movement with, is all covered in HCO PLs, advices to Int Management, to ASI, to RTC.

    LRH lays it out.

    LRH is just a human being.

    He chose the un democratic setup, reference Keeping Scientology Working, and reference his 1950s policies.

    We (Scientology, official setup that LRH left for the world) thus have the undemocratic Sea Org echelons.

    On top of that, we have David Miscavige, who will die of old age, or run off (unlikely), more likely he’ll do a non violent Tony Montana self destruction ending on himself, and maybe not, since Scientology is just so driven STILL by LRH’s policies, that even DM, I’m in the minority on this and sound like a broken record and I hate to again repeat my opinion, but I think he’s just the temp bad example of what happens to an undemocratic setup.

    Remember the setup is LRH’s, the undemocratic, ruled from the top, with WDC, Exec Strata and other parts of International Management supposed to be the ones coordinating and calling the shots per LRH’s strategies and policies.

    The personnel who run a Scientology echelon undemocratic bureaucratic setup will ALWAYS be a problem.

    Agreed DM is the Golden Goose stomper/squasher/unappreciator for the last 30 years of Stalinesque stability.

    But Scientology is still made up of humans, and in my opinion, the outside world understands us humans BETTER than Hubbard understood us humans, and the world already has the been/there–done/that examples of what Scientology is going through with David Miscavige these last 30 years.

    What I think will last, or outlast, all DM has done, is LRH’s scriptural policies and writings and lectures, which all dovetail, because they all came from the same man’s brain (I don’t believe in souls nor thetans nor body thetan interference).

    Scientology’s a subject, it’s LRH’s writings/lectures. It’s the practice of spiritual talk therapy, and spiritual high volume exorcism (the OT 3-7 high volume dead space alien exorcism of “body thetans” that supposedly, per the Xenu OT 3, infest all of us today).

    Anyways, I wish some of your contemporaries from your days, and days earlier than even your years, would join on this chat site, and tell MORE Scientology history.

    I feel this juggernaut sort of ex member movement to gang up and get Miscavige off his Stalin role of decimating deteriorating stability, will end someday, with of course Miscavige vacating the stage, one way or the other, but I think unfortunately he’s going to be doing his “job” a long time.

    Thanks so much for going public Karen! You are a really special person! God, I hope MORE of the earlier ex biggies could have had their say on the internet, but they died, like John McMasters, Reg Sharpe, before the internet, and this era of putting down in writing or on video, one’s life experiences so freely.

    thank goodness for the internet!


  13. Revenimus permalink
    September 19, 2010 7:10 pm

    Brilliant Karen, pure gold. You must write a book – you’re a beautiful person, you say it like it is or was and you’re a brilliant writer to boot!
    Jeff – I lost your number, I spoke to you last year when I was just starting to see the light and you steered me onto the truth. I’d love to hook up with you again. Can I e-mail you?
    Best, Revenimus
    P.s. I want an autographed copy of your book.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 2:38 am

      Dear Revenimus,

      Thank you dear. We share a common time track. Incarceration at Old Gilman House.
      I used to post under the screen name War and Peace.

      I am sure the days of summoning a Sea Org member from Los Angeles and imprisoning them at INT Base against their will ~~ I am sure those days are over.
      Newbies not already at the base on Highway 79 do not go up there, only OSA and such.

      I used to be Karen Jentzsch, the former wife of Heber Jentzsch who has been in lockdown in SP hole for approximately 6 years, only trotted out for PR reasons every now and again.

      Revenimus please write to me at

  14. September 19, 2010 10:24 pm

    Thank you Karen for your insightful article.

    The same ideals that got me into Scientology, got me out of Scientology, too.

    I joined a group that literally did not exist. The Creed of the Church is a fake document, hung on the front wall of every Church and Mission of Scientology in order to fool people into thinking this is what “We of the Church Believe…”

    While there are individual Scientologists who do believe in the ideals expressed in the Creed – I was one of them – those ideals are not how Scientology operates. If anyone applied the Creed of the Church fully while a member of the Church, they would be declared and expelled from it. And if they kept applying the Creed and never shut up, they would be fair-gamed – all per standard LRH ethics, tech and policy.

    Once you get out of the Church, you have to keep digging into the Source of the abuse in Scientology. Stopping at David Miscavige as the source of the abuse in Scientology is like blaming Nazi Germany on Joseph Goebbels.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 12:59 am

      Dear Allen, (Alanzo)

      What I like about blogs like Marty’s and Jeff Hawkins is that all groups can post and share the multi-viewpoint system. Indeed it is these blogs that bring together the Critics, the Old Guard, Anonymous and the Indies.

      It must be a true worry for OSA, RTC and Office of COB to see these 4 divisions of critics pool together to exchange data and vital information. I have received vital INTEL from those outside the group of Indies and I extend an open hand of friendship to all.

      As I have progressed in my journey through life, gone are the days when I saw through the lens of black and white.

      “ALL Church dissidents are Evil SPs” is pure hogwash. Spending the decades that I did in the Church, I had the THEM vs US mentality. Anyone and everyone who did not toe the party line was a degraded ETHICS particle barely worthy of their food and berthing.

      I am greatly disabused of this Black and White lens prism. The Church chanted for YEARS that the IRS was as evil as psychiatry Mysteriously all that “EVIL”
      vanished on the granting of the 501C3.

      In the last year or 2 I found out that a client of mine was a Forensic Psychiatrist. He works in the Criminal Justice system to make it a safer space for all of us. But I had the circuits and the mindset carefully ingrained into me. Oh my God ! Can I really sell a Thomas Kinkade painting and deal with a Shrink ? Oh Golly Miss Molly, is this a high crime ?
      Is this a man who belongs to the root of all evil……all the circuits in my head went into full blast


      I carefully false data stripped myself of the nonsense. This Forensic psychiatrist (who has nothing to do with patients, only the Law) and his dear wife are honorable good contributing members of society. I did my own Internet research. I virtually did an ODC (Overt data collection) to find out if I should or could sell Thomas Kinkade images to a shrink. Such was the result of being so church” indoctrinated.

      ALL Psychiatry is EVIL is Church propaganda.
      All Church dissidents are EVIL SPs to be destroyed with Dirty Tricks is shameful and criminal.

      • September 20, 2010 2:48 am

        to Karen #1,

        I have to line charge on this one lol, I did the same thing. When I had my own company my first thoughts were oh my god, now I have to qual who I do business with and to tell you the truth it hurt my production and that along with my then fiancee who was right there telling me that, that is what I had to do because if I did business with so and so, I was out ethics. Suffice to say, he is a model DM scientologist.

        But then again, I remember working for Kinder Hunt’s husband, who ran a plumbing company and I had to go to a psych’s house on a plumbing job.

        I had no idea he was a psych, I showed up wearing my psychiatry kills t-shirt lol, the psych was really mad, hey how was I to know? oh no, I was now out pr lol.

        Anyway you are either damned if you do or damned if you don’t with these people. Can you say aberrated? Excuse me, I think I’m gonna go into glee rofl 🙂

  15. Your humble servant permalink
    September 19, 2010 10:55 pm

    Probably the IAS is killing its own Golden Geese too because the tale that more and more money is needed NOW to fight imminent threats to Scientology is just getting too stale.

    Nobody every pressured me much personally or locked me in a room demanding donations as I have heard stories about. I mostly went to IAS briefings where I got into the spirit of things and donated. On rare occasions someone would call me and I would donate something.

    Over the years I guess I donated quite a few thousands, much of it going on credit cards–not directly, necessarily, but as I couldn’t afford the donations I wound up going into credit card debt. I heard stories about a guy who donated somethng like 200K or 300K but who only earned something like 40K per year or less. He was supposed to be an example of how theta is greater than MEST, but now I think he was just crazy. I was worried about him at the time and wondered how he’d pay any of it back. (He must have been a genius at getting his credit lines extended, or–more likely–there was a goodly amount of fraud thrown in). I think the IAS later gave him a job fundraising, but I don’t know how did at that if it’s true. You know who I mean I think. I just can’t think of the guy’s name. I don’t see how he could have avoided going bankrupt in the end. I’m remembering now his name was Ben.

    For me, the big shock was learning that the IAS apparently never was a true “membership organization.” I had it mocked up in my own mind that the IAS was started by dedicated Scientologists who recognized the need to give Scientology and Scientolgists additional support beyond what they were getting. Maybe that’s what we were told. I had no idea that it was essentially a “miscavige organization” from the start. I suppose I was dull not to realize that an organization run solely by SO members could not be a true “membership organization.”

    Along with that, I had no idea that DM was the “dictator” of the Church of Scientology. I had imagined that while he was “in charge” that there was a managing board of directors at INT who shared responsibility with him. Although I never felt any warm and fuzzy feelings toward the guy from seeing him on videos, I never suspected until I started reading Marty’s blog that he was a raving, psychotic, SP, lunatic. I have no doubt that that type of personality would gladly murder people wholesale if he were free to do it. I really had no idea he gave orders to the IAS. I thought it operated independently.

    Second huge shock was learning that the IAS was NOT spending what it raised on desperately needed theta projects as fast as it raised the money, but was HOARDING the money and spending a lot of it on DM whims and luxuries. Over a billion dollars in reserves and still demanding more on an “urgent basis”? How corrupt can one get? A third shock was learning from Haydn James that the IAS forced its activities upon orgs and made them bear the cost of hosting IAS events. A fourth shock was hearing that Sea Org staff at Flag are now required to wear the hat of IAS Reges as a “second hat.” A fifth shock was hearing someone say that pre-OTs (or people going onto OT VII) are told they have to upgrade their IAS membership as a condition of going forward! What kind of craziness is that?

    Like many others, I had a lifetime HASI membership! (Back in the day).

  16. Independent Scientologist permalink
    September 19, 2010 11:59 pm

    I posted near the start of this thread and I want to clarify something:

    My wife was forced out of the church, she did not leave voluntarily. If she could have continued to fly under the radar screen, instead of being unjustly summoned to AO, she would still be pushing her fellow staff members up the Bridge.

    Because she has employed LRH’s tech as standardly as she could for many years.

    And she knows it works when standardly applied.

    As do I.

    Ron Matlock

  17. September 20, 2010 6:52 am

    Great article, Karen! You are so right. To use a biblical metaphor, this is a classic case of casting pearls before swine.

    Scientology is so valuable to people that they are willing to go through hell to make it work. People on staff have endured bad living conditions, bad working conditions, the various and crazy arbitrary orders and ethics/justice actions, all because they know Scientology works and helps people. This is the golden egg. It is easy for people who are unscrupulous to take advantage of that, and they have. The current regime has squandered all of the true value of Scientology. Those that care, leave. It may take them a while to really see what is happening, but they are, and those that care, leave, and carry on in the new world.

    The books are out there, the tapes are out there – everything you need to carry on is out there. Start!

  18. Daniel Asse permalink
    September 20, 2010 7:23 am

    Karen posted that when you are in first in the Church, you do not know and you are not told what happens under the covers.
    I believed in Scientology to improve spirituality. I gave them a LOT of MONEY. They intensely regged me for a LOT of money.
    The Church became one big reg cycle to see how much they could get out of me.
    I paid $60,000 just for my wife’s bridge alone.
    I paid $100,000 to FSO for Ls
    While having L’s at Flag my wife was having sex with the Snr C/S of IFAD (in Mexico). In order to escape ethic, she became “high statistics” she took money out of our joint account and gave it all to Ideal Orgs. I posted the story on Marty;’s Blog.

    The evil CULT of DM has been accused of human trafficking.
    The Sea Org in Mexico recruits illegal aliens from Latin American countries recruited for the Sea Org. They are poor people from Chile, Argentine, Guatamela and Brazil.
    This is not known by the Mexican Government but is known by those who used to work for Sea Org.
    They have no human rights.
    They work at least 12 hrs straight since 8:45am cleaning their office, until 10pm if they are working on a Class V org, if they work at a CLO (Continental Liason Office) such a Sea Org Base or Building, they work until 11:30pm or 12:00am or if is demanded by a senior, extra for filling some special work to be done on time, when translations have place at Latam I saw no sleeping at all straight 4xdays and 5 nights. They suffer sleep deprivation. These Sea Org work until nose bleeding, fainting, and falling asleep in their chairs some fall asleep[ almost standing up.
    They pay no wage or benefits. (usually is promised to be paid $50 each week to every sea org member, but not all the time they are being paid, and that includes all the work or labor hours they work every day.

    They are used as slaves.
    They do not pay them salaries or social security.

    The name of this Sea Org is CLO LATAM (Continental Liason Office for Latin America.) also known as (Fedración Mexicana de Dianética AC)

    It is one of the Sea Org “secrets” so that they can save in the bank huge amounts of money on slave labor
    and give Tom Cruise $400,000 parties on Freewinds.

    None of this is known to the public, and is carefully covered up as they present themselves as a Church

    • September 20, 2010 5:56 pm

      to Daniel, sounds like you found a good fight and cause. Help the injustice that you experienced by helping others. I read you story on Marty’s blog and I feel your pain. There is many of us who have been hurt by DM’s church.

      DM has done more than just to give Tom Cruise $400k parties on the freewinds. He has taken your money and spent it on himself and denied you, your freedom up the bridge. That is suppressive.

      Roberto Sánchez Núñez is probably a good terminal to hook up with in Mexico. He has lines directly into the Mexican Government by helping people with drug induced type 3 meltdowns.
      He has helped others by applying scientology tech to help people instead of psychiatry as the psych’s left when the money ran out. they bailed.

      And if it crosses into the US, I suggest you contact the ACLU, they might be able to help you.

      There are clear human rights violations that need to be addressed and handled but in DM’s church, this is standard operating procedure.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 10:23 pm

      Dear Daniel,

      This LATAM Sea Org information is a horror story.
      In the 1980s and 1990s, sleep deprivation occurred over and over and INT/GOLD Base.
      Many reports surfaced that Sea Org members had to got 4-5 days with little if any sleep before an INT event working in overdrive to make DM look good.

      But I had no idea this cruelty had been exported to other continents. I will be Emailing you privately on this post.

      * Falling asleep while standing up* due to sleep deprivation. I have heard this over and over and over again. This is a Sea Org atrocity. This is DM hijacked “Scientology”

      Do you know if there are Message Boards in Mexico where ex-SO tell their stories ?

  19. Boyd H. permalink
    September 20, 2010 3:01 pm

    Great summary Karen. You put it a context that made the disassembling clearer for even me, and I’ve been reading this stuff for over a year. I’ll be sending it out to contacts.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 20, 2010 11:08 pm

      Thanks Boyd.
      One thing about the Internet is that there is no turning back.
      You cannot UNRING the BELL
      You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube.

      TRUTH will OUT.

      When I saw the hate pages on David Mayo, Marty and Mike.
      3 HUGE significant OLs for me, it literally turned my stomach.
      That was the point of no turning back for me.

      I posted as War and Peace, I probably should have come right out and posted
      on my own name and not anonymously, but I was worried about losing Alexander Jentzsch my son.

      The Church got him anyway. With careful OSA coaching and Kerstin “love” and affection
      he disconnected from me.

      But I have a VOICE. And even though my son is gone, I have stories to tell.
      A LOT of stories to TELL…..

      I will speak up for the Heber Jentzschs of the world, the Marc Yagers of the world who have experienced unconscionable brutality, and cannot speak up. They just cannot tell it like it is. I WILL.

  20. PlainOldThetan permalink
    September 20, 2010 7:22 pm


    Killing the Goose is a mentality that is apparently ingrained into the closest followers of DM, too.

    I have a close friend who used to work at Diskeeper Corporation, who told me about the campaign to oust the major technical OL from the company in order to consolidate power with a very few ex-S.O. who knew of only one way to get respect and power — by destroying those who didn’t grant them the respect and power they wanted simply by virtue of their position. Instead, he granted people respect and flowed power to those who deserved it by their intelligence, awareness, and actions.

    When the campaign to oust the major technical OL at Diskeeper came to its inevitable end, and the technical OL resigned, the company began collapsing. Without their OL, the remainder of the technical staff resigned over the next year.

    Diskeeper doesn’t even provide phone-in tech support anymore. (I tried recently.) The rest of the company has dissolved in a similar manner.

    When self-centered greed blinds one to consequences, the consequences can be large.

    For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
    For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
    For want of a horse the rider was lost.
    For want of a rider the battle was lost.
    For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
    And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

    Isn’t it funny? Not being able to see the consequence of the elimination of a horseshoe nail is the same as having no PREDICTION. Which is the awareness characteristic of the Department of Technical Services on LRH’s org board.

    Things that make you go “Hmmmmmm”.

    Plain Old Thetan

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 21, 2010 12:35 am


      Thanks for this blog.
      I read every single insightful essay of yours and recommend it to all who post here ~~

      Diskeeper ~~
      This one major outpoint of SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL ducking their heads as ostriches in the sand while they “flow major $$$$ to DM” ~~ this tells you a lot about the future of Diskeeper.
      You just cannot continue to drink the Koolaid daily without side effects.

  21. September 20, 2010 10:18 pm

    to PlainOldThetan,

    Who is that major technical OL?

    • Mike Hobson permalink
      September 21, 2010 3:13 pm

      BTW, the “Technical” PlainOlThetan is referring to above has to do with computers, operating systems and programming – not Scientology.

      Michael A. Hobson

      • September 21, 2010 9:23 pm

        to mike hobson, yeah, i got that from his comm. do you know who that major technical not scientology but computer technical OL is? lol i hate to be kept in mystery and i do not have enough data to figure it out lol 🙂

      • PlainOldThetan permalink
        September 22, 2010 6:48 am

        Mike, the Technical OL at Diskeeper was into operating systems, system software, and algorithm invention and implementation. He was also a Class VI C/S and a OT V. And my contact says you met the technical OL while he was on the Briefing Course. And the cycle has everything to do with Karen’s article because CJ is buddies with DM. By squeezing out the technical OL (computer-wise), they killed the goose. DM later squeezed him (Scientology Tech-wise) out of Field Auditing. More goose-killing.

        He doesn’t want his name in my postings because Diskeeper Corp. is just as vindictive as the Church with its lawyers.

  22. windhorse permalink
    September 20, 2010 10:40 pm

    My dear Karen,

    This is a wonderful article. Carefully crafted with a most intelligent display of analogies.

    What strikes me over and over is how many ex SO or ex scientologists are polarized. Either LRH is ALL good, or he is ALL bad. Either it’s ALL miscavige or it ALL began before miscavige and he is just a symptom.

    None of these are COMPLETELY true. There is a piece of truth in each of the polarities. And depending on ones own perspective and where someone was at the time of his MAJOR upset with scientology causing him to leave the SO and sometimes scientology, a person leans more heavily into one of the various polarities and it of course – colors his view.

    I never met LRH and was never on the Apollo but I had several dear friends who were. Two of my auditors at Flag were LRHs personal household staff. They said it was a rough post, usually didn’t last very long BUT they loved LRH and always felt he was fair and kind. In fact, both said to me they wondered how he put up with them as long as he did.

    For me the biggest joy in frequenting these blogs (even the anti ones – I always learn something) – is reconnecting with friends I haven’t spoken to in 30 years. Each time, our stories are different, our lives have changed, our growth comes from different areas but one for one — that bond of reconnecting is deep.

    Those of us who got involved in scientology in the late 60’s, early 70’s — are now — (god forbid) senior citizens.

    We have lived our lives and I’m thrilled to see it appears that we’ve done a fairly decent job of it. We are pretty happy and by and large not bitter.

    And why should we be? Here was something that made sense to us. We gathered for better or worse to help other human beings AND ourselves. Thus we are committed to each other.

    (we could have become Hare Krisnas, buddhists, political activists etc) … instead we became scientologists.

    And for this I thank LRH.


    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 21, 2010 12:27 am

      Thank you WH.
      How exquisitely you express things.
      Yes, it is the 100% Black and 100% white viewpoint is something that I have moved away from.

      Marty Rathbun wrote a great article called “The Middle Path”

      …and I have in my own journey moved to the middle.

      Did you see the Academy Award winning movie “CRASH” ? (Paul Haggis)

      Every single person featured clearly had both GOOD and BAD.
      Even the very bad guys, the car hijackers had compassion for the Asian
      immigrants huddled in the van and purchased food for them
      It really showed how all human beings have goodness in spite of any other
      The nature of the being has all components.

      But when the bad is 95% is electrifying to all around.
      And when that person is in command is even more viewed and on the radar.

      WH ~~ I much enjoy your blogs and our private communication.
      Thanks for this post.

  23. brendon permalink
    September 20, 2010 10:49 pm

    File this one under “funny coincidence:” Scoop’s girlfriend at the time of his disappearance was someone named Jennifer Rathbun.

  24. September 20, 2010 10:54 pm

    Life is about Living it.
    There is no other reason and/or “gist” to life.

    Trying to connect life to anyone’s ideas about life is a wastf of time… and life.

    Rather: live it. Keep living it. Feel it. Make it!

    Life is all about fullfilling what you feel is right/good.

  25. Glenn Samuels permalink
    September 21, 2010 1:37 am

    Thank you my dear friend Karen
    I didn’t have the time to leave this on the other site but I wanted to say it here.

    Yes, we were side to side in the Flagship auditor admin room studying the folders we sent to LRH and sharing the tech research lineage. I remember a folder that came down from LRH with a note about one of the musicians in the Apollo Troupe. His comment about this musician apply to what you and I are talking about with the auditors who live in terror. The note said that when this musician got stressed by the crowd (stage fright) that he introverted into his instrument and didn’t reach the audience.
    How this case note applies to today’s tech scene is due to the stress and threats of punishment in the Draconian DM culture auditors become very introverted and afraid. Firstly they introvert into themselves and then into the meter.

    Focus is no longer where it should be, on the pc, they don’t have the ability to look outwards. Add to that the ever present camera taping the sessions which adds the stage freight factor PLUS they are not trained on the meter correctly by the DM tech regime. You have a dangerous, not there auditor and an abandoned pc.

    Karen, you were always so clear on what you were doing and every folder or pc you touched had wins. You were top of the Class. The opinion leader among the Class XIIs. Only someone as devious and callous as DM could find fault with you. But that was the point wasn’t it? The finest people who actually knew what Scn was all about like you, an LRH trained Class 12, were rounded up and imprisoned at INT Base with DM style sec checking.

    Instead of wanting to learn from you and treasure your wisdom, you were invalidated. That is suppressive.
    I’m glad that you left too and that you are smiling again. The fact that you are now a super successful business woman shows how effective you are in anything you do.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 21, 2010 9:55 am

      Dear Glenn,

      Thank you for writing this. I enjoyed your hard hitting essay summarizing what you have been encountering in pcs who get audited with THOUGHT police or THOUGHT Stoppers, embattled with the auditor on FN disputes or with mutual ruds.

      I did respond to the blog ~~ a day or 2 late, but I did acknowledge you. Great article Glenn. You make me go back in time to the happiest and most adventurous times of my life.
      Those were days….

      I still laugh when I recall how MAD you made Jeff Walker daily at roll call. Every day….. LOL ~~You would wake up at 8:29 am (by your own admission) for 8:30 muster !!!

      And Jeff Walker would raise the ante and raise his sarcasm. “So Glenn, do you have a new excuse today ?……” You NEVER could make it to a muster on time

      But we all pure gold. We were the Golden Geese. Flag’s only income was Parishioner Fees for auditing in those years. We kept the Apollo afloat, we delivered the Ls and other services, we ensured the Commodore could do his research and we had the treat of studying every new CS fresh from his pen hand delivered by the messengers to the Interneship. The new LRH CS EVERY morning for breakfast !

      Many public returned and returned for more. I can hardly recall a Repair Program. They had an L, they return 6 months later for another, and then again for the 3rd L each time going straight onto new L with no attention or repair of previous auditing. NO SUCH THING AT FLAG. THEY REPAIR AND REPAIR AND REPAIR AND THEN REPAIR THE REPAIR ALL FOR NEW ADDITIONAL $$$$$$$. You and I get the Emails…

      I can speak highly of you as well. I am happy you are there to handle messed up cases and that you audit the way we did it ~~ with spectacular results. Without mandatory FNs of 3 needle swings and all the complete hogwash of the Golden Age of Technical Bullshit.

      I have moved on to another playing field and will not return to auditing and CSing.
      But I recommend you as an LRH trained auditor Glenn and others can reach you at


      • Karen#1 permalink
        September 21, 2010 10:17 pm

        Glenn Samuels wrote this to me privately and I asked his permission to post this in this Blog which demonstrates how the PRODUCERS, the CONTRIBUTORS, the GOLDEN GEESE PRODUCING the GOLDEN EGGS and valuable STATS are slaughtered, demoralized and ABUSED within the Sea Organization.

        ABUSE is the keyword of DM’s CULT. ABUSE has accelerated and increased every year. The schedule has gotten worse. The THREATS have gotten worse. The PENALTIES have gotten worse. The YEARS of lockdown in the RPF is now extended to YEARS ~~ what was originally created as a 3 month program by LRH with 5 hours enhancement a day.

        Escape Story ~~ GLENN SAMUELS, Apollo Crew, LRH Trained auditor.
        In May 1982 me, ex COs of the CMO, Dede Reisdorf and Gale Irwin and I had are own guards at the complex “Blue building.” Our section was dark, dank and moldy. Very unhealthy.

        They confiscated my car keys and wanted me to agree I was an “SP”. I don’t think so. I had a stellar career as an auditor/CS tech guy in the FSO and CMO. At Flag people would be wait listed to be audited by me and so called “SPs.” My stats and accomplishments in the past didn’t matter because of my horrendous crime… In any case as time went by any pc folder or case they had a problem with at the Folo was sent to me via the RPF IC. They were all mystified when celebs came and visited me in my little prison; ones I had audited heard I was in trouble so came to see me in my lockdown at the PAC complex. Who was this guy?

        Anyway, I heard the Lakers were in the playoffs for the championship. Gotta go…. I winked goodbye to Dede and Gale, found my keys in the guard’s jacket and drove to Palm Springs to watch the Lakers win…. I make it sound funny, it was in some ways, but it was human trafficking and the human rights violations were so thick you needed more than a knife to cut through them.

        What had I done? What was the Crime of the Century??—Left some boxes with the name Church of Scientology NY written on them and didn’t tear them up before putting them in the trash, Wow whatta criminal!!

        Everyone including my Aunt Rosie who lived in nearby Hemet knew Scientology was there on Highway 79 after all, what other fenced in high security place with people scurrying around in navy uniforms in Gilman Hot Springs had an unfinished sailing ship in the front yard??


        My ex-wife, Maureen, “Mo” was one of the ones running around a tree with Mayo and all the other “dirty dozen” who were comm evd. Much to those in his presence Mo had called Miscavige “a little shit!” to his face. That led to her demise. I was already out of the SO for about 6 months and through a friend I found out she was in the kitchen and called Int and got through to her saying that I was her brother. I told her that I loved her and that she should leave because it was crazy with the Broekers and Miscavige in charge. After running around all day and doing heavy work, she was getting gang sec checked in the middle of the night and being asked ludicrous questions like “where does Uncle Armand get his money?”

        My uncle was a wealthy jewelery manufacturer and apparently they thought he was some sort of spy, just bizarre paranoid and crazy stuff. Eventually she told the guards to let her go, her father was deputy police commissioner in Buffalo, NY and knew a lot of FBI, so she left. It shows you how dumb they were, instead of asking about her father who had FBI contacts they were asking about a jeweler!! She took her stuff, our cat and got a ride to my mother’s in Palm Springs where she started to heal from the cruel punishment, sleep deprivation and humiliation.

        NOTE from Karen.
        Maureen Samuels was just another APOLLO Sea Org Vet that was unconscionably abused with sadistic Gang Bang Sec Checking and made to run around a tree with David Mayo and other Execs. They were the recipients of CRUELTY and INSANITY that the CULT pretends it is there to handle on Planet Earth.

  26. It's me again permalink
    September 21, 2010 3:58 am


    Great Story. Thank you. I believe you are a Class XII auditor, correct? I wanted to thank you for all you have done for your fellow man in the auditing chair and what you are still doing to stop the abuse of others.

    Best to you.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 21, 2010 6:32 am

      It’s me again.
      Thank you for kind words.
      Actually I am one of say 6-8 people on planet Earth that graduated Class XII CS which is the supervisor of the XIIs.

      All water under the bridge…..

      I am only on the web because

      1) Some 400 prisoners, veteran Sea Org members are in lockdown prison confinement at INT BASE with no constitutional rights, not even the right to talk privately on a cell phone outside in case they reveal the horrors they endure.

      2) My son has disconnected from me, a boy I willingly let the Sea Org have when I could have put my foot down as a parent…he was only a child, and they have now turned him against me.

      3) They continue shameful dirty tricks and apply the OSA Network Series to veteran whistleblowing SO members.

      4) David Miscagive has hi-jacked LRH’s legacy into “churches”of fear and oppression and thought police

      The other reasons are the outpoints you have already seen on the web.

      Thanks again.

      • It's me again permalink
        September 21, 2010 3:14 pm


        I am sure that your intelligence, persistence , willingness and the care you have for your fellowman that got you to be a Class XII C/S is not water under the Bridge. Just because you are not in an auditing chair in the Church doesn’t mean that you are no longer a Class XII C/S. You observed the outpoints, you wrote to me above, that need handling and I bet you have your own program to handle them and are progress.

        If you can write a 1st Dynamic program for a pc, I am sure you can write a 3rd Dynamic program and get it done.

        Thanks again.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 21, 2010 9:14 pm

      ITS Me AGAIN:

      How nice of you to remind me, that in this lifetime, I have made every postulate stick.

  27. Fellow Traveller permalink
    September 21, 2010 4:31 am

    War and Peace, eh? One of this planet’s most powerful dichotomies. How appropriate.

    I believe now my eggs were ravaged, my goose cooked. Yeah, I don’t feel too good about that. But the real geese that have been killed, the ones that really cause me serious, copious tears: #1 LRH’s philosophy and techniques of application. This I see as fundamental to all other geese. And those other geese are #2. Since I have broken, well, cracked, my own thought stoppers, my own prejudices, my own idee fixees and bothered to communicate with some of these geese, well I have had to work on my confront to fathom the magnitude of this waste. My eggs pale in comparison.

    Thank you Karen for illumination, brilliance and help.

    Bruce Pratt

  28. September 21, 2010 9:06 am

    There has been a lot of water under the bridge in the 41 years I have been in Scientology. In the 70’s, there were many mission and field groups run by a sane and sensible leader with good ARC who cared that the people under their wing got wins from the tech. These were happy scenes. People that got into Scientology during the 70’s often remember it as a real high point in their Scientology experience.

    This era and the people that were attracted to Scientology during it were truly the golden goose. It was their creativity and entrepreneurial spirit that really put Scientology on the map. So much expansion and theta were created by these people, that even after the insanity of the early 80’s and the era of Miscavige taking hold, it took decades to fully squash the theta that they had generated.

    This small group model is the one I have always used in my field practice since I started it in 1970. Year after year I audited people, they had wins, there was good word of mouth, and I was always busy with plenty of people to audit.

    There has always been a streak of craziness that would surface from time to time in Scientology, but these rough periods were local and temporary and things inevitably got back on track. For the most part, we in the field were left alone to succeed or fail on our own steam.

    In recent decades though, and especially over the last ten years, the heavy hand of bad control became more palpable and was no longer temporary or local. There was no escape from it, and the suppression became especially grievous the higher up the bridge you went.

    The inevitable result is that people who wanted to still benefit from the tech or to help others benefit from the tech, were driven out of the oppressive environment of the Church, and many of these people have decided to follow the independent and small group model that worked so well in the 70s.

    And again this is working for people. Since I have decided to audit people completely independent of the Church, I have audited many many people who had thrown in the towel and had been inactive 10, 20 and even 30 years ago, but who are now winning again. A common comment is “What a difference being audited in a non-oppressive environment.”

    And I’m not the only one, independent field groups are springing up regularly now and are regularly posting terrific success stories from people who are now winning who had lost hope of ever getting what they came into Scientology for.

    Miscavige may have killed the golden goose of the Church, but he has not killed the spirit that created that in the first place.

    That is alive and well.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 22, 2010 3:36 am

      Dear Trey,

      Thank you for the post. I know that you were a very important Field auditor in the Los Angeles area for decades. I know that IHELP were sent a cool $100,00 in a few short years for doing absolutely nothing towards your practice.

      You were a field auditor Golden Goose.

      I remember you coming to the Flagship APOLLO to do 2 Interneships under LRH as our Senior CS ~~ you have a rich heritage.

      The fact that Sea Org Members came to you on a Saturday night and ripped your Certs of the walls and carted off all your pc folders with no warning, no communication, essentially an unnounced RAID was despicable ABUSE of a veteran field auditor while throwing an SP declare at you. Aaahhh the jealousy of market share. All about $$$$$$

      Here’s Trey’s story ~~

      Like every other sector Field Auditors have been demolished contrary to LRH writings where Field Auditors are to be protected and cared for. You could count on your fingers how many field auditors exist in Los Angeles.

      I enjoyed hearing from you on a personal level what a sense of FREEDOM you felt when the RAIDERS were gone. You were free of THOUGHT STOPPERS and THOUGHT POLICE.
      You could think and say what you really felt.

      I felt this same sense of exuberance and freedom when I came out. I could THINK FREELY, ACT FREELY AND say what I damned well pleased to whoever I wanted to do and it is FREEDOM. DM’s cult is ENTRAPMENT. The buzzword FREEDOM used in the church is an utter falsehood.

      I respect you Trey.

    • Maria permalink
      September 23, 2010 12:50 pm

      Trey: Learning that you had been declared suppressive was one of those “moments” for me. In that moment the reality of just how far astray the Church had gone hit home, hit home hard. Based on my own training and experience, and what I knew of your dedicated work over two decades, I knew it simply wasn’t possible for this to be a valid declare. Thank you so much for continuing to audit anyway!

      Karen: For what its worth, I have cross flowed several interactions between your son and other people. As best he can he acts as a straight shooter and in that respect he is very much like you. I am so very, very sorry that he has been turned against you like this and I truly believe that he will come to the same conclusions as you did. He is not unaware of the injustice factor and my experience with him is that he tries to undo the damage done as much as he can. Thank you for standing behind him with so much love and care and taking the actions from outside of the Church that need to happen to secure a safe environment for him, for those you love and for all of us. Deeply, deeply appreciated.

      I do not think of either of you as a golden goose. I think of you as the fierce, yet beautiful swans that grace the world and make it so much a better place to live in.

      Thank you both.

      • September 24, 2010 8:47 am

        Thank you Maria for your kind words.

        The support of people like yourself has made all the difference to me in being able to carry on and continue to deliver to the best of my ability the wonderful gains that can be had when the tech is sincerely and standardly applied.

        I personally know of 14 people who made their final decision to leave the church based on the events that I describe in my story. LRH says that Suppressives will drive out good staff, and judging by the quality of the people that are appearing in the Independent Field, the truth of this could not be more obvious.

      • Karen#1 permalink
        September 24, 2010 8:55 am

        Dear Maria,

        Thanks for the kind words on Alexander.
        As a matter of fact Alexander knows all about the darker side of the “Church” ~~ he knows all about David Miscavige beating SO Execs, Int Base Musical Chairs and the St. Pete Times “Truth Rundown” etc. etc.

        Because Alex was on tour so much, the Public came up to him and told him these things. Alexander and I discussed it in depth.

        He is a 2nd generation Scientologist born into it, but he is no dummy and I understand only too well how he has been manipulated and turned against me.

        It bothers me a lot that Heber Jentzsch has only seen Alex once in 6 years. Heber is 76 years old. He is in his twilight years. The time he has spent with Alexander is so minimal that it is shocking and unbelievable that
        Miscavige pulled this on Heber and myself and our son after YEARS of stellar production.

        If Heber dies without spending much more time with Alexander…this will be deliberate and on purpose and sadistically ordered and controlled by David Miscavige.

        Your words are very kind, thanks Maria. By the way, I received a BUNCH of Emails when I first came out of the Church of people that left the Church on Trey Lotz declare. He has been a Safe Harbor and a significant terminal for many.

        It wasn’t that they chose Trey vs the Church.

        It was that it was so outrageous, so out to lunch, so mean and vindictive, that pcs could not stand to be part of a group that carried on like this.
        What is that old saying ? “By their ACTIONS ye shall KNOW them”.
        I don’t know if you have seen the David Miscavige ordered hate sites on Marty and Mike (don’t visit) but the stomach turning drivel, Tabloid style with tissues of lies are beyond revolting.

        There is no CHURCH on planet earth that creates HATE sites on departed members. NONE.

        It is a DM CULT special.

  29. Virgil permalink
    September 21, 2010 4:32 pm

    My lovely Karen;

    If you told me stories from the Apollo for the rest of my life, I would feel my life complete.

    I was one of those silly geese. My first post when I was on staff in Detroit was Word Clearer. I word cleared people for a year. Can you imagine the amount of case gain I saw in one year? I saw more PFNs, Floating Tone Arms and Dial Wide FNs (I don’t need no stinkin’ 3 swings) in that one year than I saw in 2 years as an HGC auditor. More importantly I saw the value of making sure people did not have misunderstoods.

    I became an Intern Sup and started making auditors. I realized that the most important thing to do was to make as many auditors as possible. While in Detroit I made around 150 permanant auditors. Most of them are still auditing somewhere. I fixed seven class VIIIs when I was the Qual Sec at AOLA. I slammed their basics in and made them into monster VIIIs.

    While at AOLA I decided that making OTs was just as important as making auditors. I was the OT III-VII supervisor and made thousands of OTs in just two years. Then as Qual Sec I worked endlessly at making shiney products of OTs.

    I went on the Rollback Missions to USGO and GOWW and used my sec checking skills to locate out ethics, squirreling and plants. I found 2 plants with my emeter and a boatload of off-sourceness.

    Then I was posted as C/S-5 at FB which became Qual Aide. I fixed a lot of stuff at FLB before I went on Cont Missions to EUS and ANZO to get the squirrels out and standard tech/admin in. I became CO ANZO and saved that cont from going down the tubes.

    I was then posted as SO PGMS Chf at FCB and tripled the size of the sector. I was making thousands of new OTs every year.

    Then I was CO ITO. I had the biggest and baddest training facility that anyone ever made. But it was soon unmocked by the unholy (DM personally had me sent to renos when my stats as CO ITO were at their highest – he said he needed me to use my talent to put the HGB management building there).

    After the HGB I became the LRH Life Exhibition I/C. Then I was posted to CMOI as the Construction Management Ops CMOI and answered weekly to DM. Every Friday I had to take the renovations photo albums up to him and get them thrown at me or out of the office or in the trash can and listen to a litany of epithets hurled my way and so forth.

    Finally I did the Maiden Voyage mission where we released OT VIII. I was the mission I/C. Shortly afterwards I blew from CMOI. It was either I blew or I was going to physically hurt someone. I could not handle the mental abuse that went on up there. And this was years before the Hole!
    I cannot imagine me being there during the Hole. Someone would have died.

    In 1996, GAT was released. I was appauled that the little fugger called it the “Golden Age”. I knew right then and there he was suppressive. For the next year I saw more squirreling from RTC than I had seen in 24 years I was on staff prior to GAT. In the middle of this madness Jennifer Linsen told us at a base wide briefing that “You old timers days are numbered. We’re going to replace you with younger staff.” I knew that Jennifer was not capable of this type of thinking herself, so I knew it was her mission ops (DM) stating this to us.

    Well I wrote up the whole thing and was RPF’d 3 days later. I refused to do the RPF and routed out.

    The above products I mentioned were only about 1/10th of the Golden Eggs I laid. In the process I was comm ev’d 24 times, RPF’d 3 times, put on the decks about 15 times and declared an SP once. But I brushed all of that aside because I knew I was dealing with idiots and I had to fix the friggen thing before it went south for good. I maintained a steady hand until GAt and that is what finished me off. RTC had become a small Army of robotic driods who mindlessly followed the lead of DM and passed the hat down to messengers who also passed the hat to the rest of the Sea Org. There were only a handfull of us SO members that stood up to GAT and we were quickly mowed down.

    Did DM care if I was a major egg laye? Sure he did and he made sure I was gotten rid of.


    • Jeff permalink*
      September 21, 2010 5:59 pm

      “In the middle of this madness Jennifer Linsen told us at a base wide briefing that ‘You old timers days are numbered. We’re going to replace you with younger staff.'”

      How’s that working out for you, Jenny?

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 21, 2010 9:11 pm

      My dear Tom,

      Thank you so much for this. I got the sequence, I got the time track. Understood. I remember you well when you were married to Carol. More importantly I duplicated the years of working for pennies an hour in exchange for ABUSE.

      You are a survivor and you have stories to tell.

      Being loyal to LRH makes one stick in through the dark times. I want you to keep a tight line with me. We ex-SO vets who have been through it ~~ we take care of our own.

      Jenny Linsen /De Vocht is a troubled human being and the worst embarrassment on that CNN show “A History of Violence”.

      I was reminded of an incident that occurred in my last year in the Sea Org. I had been auditing late way over dinner time at AOLA. I crossed L Ron Hubbard way to go the dining room ~~but the food had been cleared away and only food left was in the CMO/INCOMM dining room.

      I entered with a plate to grab a small bite to eat when a CMO twerpy 21 year old raved at me : “What are doing here ? This is a CMO dining room. Get the hell out of here……”

      I stared at this Jenny Linson type character. She was throwing me out the dining room on her status denying my dinner because of her Sea Org Rank. She did not have a clue as to who I was, she was a newbie.

      I went back to post without eating.
      That’s the way the Sea Org is set up and what it has morphed into.

    • September 21, 2010 9:50 pm

      to Tom,
      wow, David Miscavige aka DM lol and Jenny Linson really value human life don’t they? not.

      wbtw, is against the law, age discrimination.

      They threw people away, good people at a drop of a hat and reward unethical behavior, money. They don’t value hard working, honest, decent people who are truly upstat.

      Now I know what happened to ITO.

      It was more important for DM to put you on renos then continue the affluence.

      To DM, he a=a people. They are all the same to him, bodies in the shop, mest bodies, he can’t even see the beings there in front of him, cause he has no soul, he sold it a long time ago.

    • Aeolus permalink
      September 22, 2010 1:43 pm


      There is one thing that comes through in your story that I also saw in the books by Jeff and Amy, and that is that DM is a compulsive player of musical chairs. If you are good at your post, creating big effects, getting the stats into a stellar range, he will transfer you to a different post. And if you succeed there, then he’ll move you again. And sometimes he’ll shuffle people around for no apparent reason.

      LRH said that musical chairs is the fastest way to destroy an Org. When I was first starting to sort out where and why my church had gone off the rails, among all of the “he said” and “she said” it was this consistent pattern of behavior that fully convinced me that Miscavige was the real deal, a genuine 2 1/2% suppressive person.

      Only later did I find out that the little dictator had even deleted the references to ‘musical chairs’ from his new squirrelly Ethics book. Along with other data he found inconvenient, like ‘merchants of chaos’.

  30. flytrike permalink
    September 22, 2010 6:48 pm

    Dear Karen,

    I would like to thank you for this great article.
    You are a shining beacon for this great movement.
    PLEASE continue TELLING THE STORIES, good ones (your experiences with LRH, MSH, his Family, Apollo) and bad and ugly ( DM and Co.).
    You are a contemporary witness, I and many others are not.
    But we want to know.
    Your capabilities to communicate and to put thoughts on the paper are unique.
    I just can’t have enough of that.
    Thank you for being here.
    I admire you, salute you and wish you just the best.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 23, 2010 9:16 am

      Dear FLYTRIKE,

      I so very much appreciated your kind words. Got it on the rarer stories. I see how much this is wanted and I will be working on this.

      I used to fly all over the world for YEARS as guest speaker for FSO telling rare LRH/ Apollo Stories. I do have a lot of them Even ones never told before. Thanks for the nudge reminding me to tell……


  31. lunamoth permalink
    September 22, 2010 9:34 pm


    I just returned from a week away from the blogs and find this wonderful article. Thank you once again for revealing to us some of your treasure-trove of inside information. But thank you mostly for the right indication to so many stellar beings who personally gave so much and worked so hard for something we all believed in.

    I have often thought, since cutting my ties to the c of m, that the worst casualty of dm’s supremely selfish campaign to change/destroy scientology was not the screwed up cases (repairable in the indie field), the lost tech (now being found again by the indie field) or even the disrepute on the church (good riddance to that).

    It was the profoundly wrong indications made to all who contributed. And those purposeful harmful acts were even more concentrated among the most productive, efficient, effective and valuable members of the group.

    Personally, I don’t feel I suffered much in this way, but I am acutely aware of the sheer cruelty and stupidity to others, resulting in injustice after injustice, that have marked the downward spiral of miscavige and the church. I hope this wonderful article serves to indicate those wrongs to the individuals whom dm has tried to crush and demoralize.

    More, please. <3.


    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 23, 2010 9:12 am

      My dear Lunamoth,

      Thank you for this response which has so much duplication of the points I was making.

      This was very good
      *purposeful harmful acts were even more concentrated among the most productive, efficient, effective and valuable members of the group.*

      The Dirty Tricks and Black Ops done by the “Church” is highly unbecoming of a Church
      I myself am guilt or participating in one of them. I will be coming clean on this presently…..
      while drinking the Kool Aid I believed the “Church” had to be protected at any cost.

      Did I ever tell you the Dirty Ops run on me ?

      One of the Church PIs called in an ANONYMOUS tip line that I was smuggling underage children to …… CPA !!!! My accountant, a Harvard Graduate who’s name and city they got out of my pc folder.

      A Detective and FBI agent showed up as a matter of routine to check out the story. When they asked if he had enemies, he said NO, when asked if Karen de la Carriere had enemies and my CPA said “Scientology” the investigation was over.

      But I was livid. I contribute to this group for 35 years and they try to set me with a CHILD SMUGGLING FELONY !

      In order to explain to these 2 law enforcement personnel why this occurred, I sent them the OSA Network Orders. Again, it would not have occurred to me to do this til they threw gasoline on the fire to inflame and make things worse for themselves. Of course this whole incident raised my profile with a lot more Law Enforcement. Talk about a foot-bullet ! OSA/RTC created it !!!!

      Lunamoth, when you have time, read these blood curdling issues ~~ the manuals of how to destroy. OSA Network #15 is the BIBLE of their dirty Ops.

      This is why they have turned FREEDOM mag into a mad attack dog on their own top veterans.

      Here is the link

      ~~ Here are some Dirty Ops so you see the PATTERN

      From David Mayo, Senior CS Apollo and Senior CS INT who had saved LRH”s life when he was very very ill.
      On August 4, 1994, Scientology(tm) utilized INTERPOL, the US DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency), and the DNCD (Dominicana Nacional Control de Drogas) to try to enforce Scientology’s(tm) religious beliefs on me, to persecute me and to get me jailed by false allegations to INTERPOL. INTERPOL had received and acted on a report that I was “practicing Scientology(tm) without a license”; that I had “destroyed Scientology(tm) property”; that I was “representing” myself as a “Scientologist”. Ventura Bayonet, head of the Dominican Republic DNCD said that he decided to act as a result of a phone call from INTERPOL alleging that I had damaged “millions of dollars of Scientology(tm) property
      Click here to read more~~

      But calling in anonymous TIPS to Law Enforcement has been so repeatedly done, that Law Enforcement is now savvy to ~~~ the CULT Black Ops.

      2) Robert Welkos and Joel Sappel did a series of articles on Scientology in the LA Times in 1990
      A bogus assault complaint was filed with the Los Angeles Police Department against Sappell
      READ more ~
      3) They even called Scotland Yard, wasting Law Enforcement time to accuse author Russel Miller of being involved in an Axe Murder !

      I can name 20 anonymous phone calls to “DESTROY HIM UTTERLY.”

      This is a very dark side of the Church. It designed to manufacture CRIME, create black and false propaganda, even try to get someone committed to a mental Asylum like Stacey Young (Brooks) another veteran Sea Org Member.

      Every now and again their Black Ops blow up right in their face. Prosecutor Casey Hill of Toronto, Canada showed what could happen when Church attack went wrong.

      In March, 1983, three buses of cops raided the offices and, from the pile of documents, Scientology and 18 people were later charged with infiltrating two law firms, the College of Physicians, the OMA, the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Ontario Provincial Police, the Metro Toronto Police,the Attorney General of Ontario and the RCMP.

      After losing in court, Scientology then went after an Officer of the Court, Prosecutor Casey Hill. Scientology sued the Prosecutor, claiming he misled a judge and tampered with documents. The case was dismissed, and Hill sued for libel; “Scientology decided that Casey Hill was the enemy and it set out to destroy him,” the court ruled. “It levelled false charges against him. It persecuted him on these charges. In summary, the evidence suggests that Scientology set upon a persistent course of character assassination over a period of seven years with the intention of destroying Casey Hill.”

      The jury award that was upheld in this appeal was the largest libel award in Canadian history. The Church of Scientology were found jointly liable for general damages of $300,000 Aggravated damages of $500,000 and punitive damages of $800,000 making Scientology’s total liability $1,600,000.
      This was the RESULT of Result of jury award of general, aggravated and punitive damages. upheld by their Supreme Court.,

      In 1991, Prosecutor Casey Hill won $2.1-million in damages, the largest libel award ever in Canadian History. He gave the “Church” a black eye for the 7 year campaign to “DESTROY HIM UTTERLY”.

      • September 23, 2010 5:35 pm

        black ops lol. I too was to do that. I was on my way back into the sea org in 1998, I was being recruited by Gavin Potter, my old recruiter, I was at Bridge in 1991, I was the bookstore officer.

        I was being recruited for a special mission to get ot 9 and ot 10 released.

        Per Gavin, I would be trained in martial arts and we were gonna go kidnap and audit the SP’s. I was up for it, I was like cool, up my purpose line, you know to stop and prevent future wars etc. I figured they were mankinds SP’s, the 2 1/2 per cent. I didn’t realize they were people like mayo etc.

        I remember telling Gavin, dude, that’s my game. Let’s go. I never made it back into the Sea Org, other things prevented that from happening. Good thing too. Karen, the universe works in mysterious ways lol.

    • lunamoth permalink
      September 23, 2010 6:57 pm

      Karen, just when I think I’ve heard all the “big” stuff, you come out with something like this.
      Jeezus. I have no words. The sheer willingness to destroy lives and cases and wreak havoc and destruction, to hurt people, to wreck futures, to condemn beings (or try to) to lifetimes of pain and
      suffering … almost inconceivable.

      As their crimes are revealed and the list of those grows longer, we see what a truly heroic action it is to stand up and speak out, despite the danger to oneself.


      • Karen#1 permalink
        September 23, 2010 9:47 pm

        Lunamoth :

        Thank you dear. Yes, it’s a WILLINGNESS TO DESTROY. Jeff Hawkins very succinctly, in an earlier article covered the formula of the mind set. Anything goes in DM’s CULT if it is for “The Greatest Good” formula. The Greatest Good within the cult is they WIN, everyone else can LOSE.

        LOSE their JOB if it’s a Scientology Company.

        The target becomes the object of TOTAL (attempted) destruction.
        While they hold onto and keep every amount of money $$$$$ regged out of out when you were in.

        Here’s the point I want to make.
        Scientology is either a CHURCH or not a Church.
        I do not see that in shades of grey.

        Like saying You are Pregnant or you are NOT Pregnant.
        There is no such thing as ALMOST Pregnant.

        With a Church, it is either a CHURCH or not a Church and recognized as nothing more than an ABUSIVE CULT.

        +++DM”s cult want recognition as a CHURCH while they try to set up Marty Rathbun for murder of his brother by bogus and fraudulent claims to Law Enforcement.

        ++++DM’s cult sent 20 snarling wolves to a parking lot to attack Mike Rinder and have brainwashed his own daughter Taryn to SCREAM at him that he is SP !

        ++++Only a CULT would keep 300-400 people in complete and utter lockdown in their infamous GOLD Base prison on Highway 79. Only a CULT would treat a Sea Org Member like this

        No medical Treatment and 3 year imprisonment lockdown This is a Church ?

  32. Virgil permalink
    September 23, 2010 6:27 am

    You know, I have been wanting to say this for a long time and I think it is time I said it.

    The wisest man I know said that we needed the Sea Org in order to clear the planet. He said the that the reason is that we have to put in ethice in this planet and this universe. Sorry, but that’s what he said. I understand it. I have seen, first hand, what people can do to other people. I was involved in he largest drug war ever in the history of this planet. I saw thousands die or be mained just so a few SPs in the CIA could make a ton of money. That, my friends, is serious out ethics.

    DM is a schoolyard punk. The only reason he is getting away with what he is getting away with is because he is dealing with the cream of the crop of the civilization. These cream people are good people and followed the chain of command like good boys and girls. But these people (myself included) did not have their confront of evil in and did not confront DM and say “no” to him and start the movement on the inside. Why? Because we were weak. Why? Because we were out ethics. What do I mean by that? Well, we ALLOWED an SP to take over. We chose to whine and snivel about it and then leave instead of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. And that is real out ethics.

    All of this whining about what DM and the “Sea Org” has done to us is make us weaker. LRH said in KSW that the finest organizations in history have been tough, dedicated organizations. It’s a tough universe and only the tigers survive. Even they have a hard time of it.

    Look what it took to take out Hitler. Do you think a bunch of people on the internet would have done it? In the definition of responsibility in AP&A LRH says that the soldier on the battlefield is responsible for getting shot. well of course he is. Anything the Sea Org or DM or Jennifer Linsen did to us we let happen. The fact that we whine about it now makes us less then they are. the effect of those entities. If you don’t believe me restudy your PTS/SP data and demo out the mechanics on how one goes the effect of SPs.

    I’m not trying to be a dick here. I want us all to survive and the only way we are going to survive is to get tough and then get effective. I get it that we got tripped up. We had SPs on our asses the entire way – DM, Otto Roos and others whose evil ints were let to fly like Kerry and Bill. we didn’t take responsibility for these people and they ruined us.

    I got it that it’s a tough road and it is not an easy thing to get tech in on this planet, but we need to get tough and get organized to do it. This is not me talking, it is LRH. You can point your fingers at LRH and how he screwed the pooch, but it is us that let him down. He was put on the run because we weren’t fast enough or causitive enough to handle the CIA, AMA and FBI who were trying to jail him, so he had to relinquish management of the church too early and had no choice but to turn it over to us. Obviously we weren’t ready.

    The road out is to get causative and take Scientology back and clear this shithole while we still can. And I myself am amazed that we still have time.

    So let’s ease off of the finger pointing and assign ourselves cause so that we can be responsible again. Marty is going to throw everything he’s got at DM and unseat the twerp. That’s his job. Our job is to build it back up the way LRH said to. Otherwise we got no chance.

    And just in case some of you weren’t in the Sea Org and therefore weren’t reasponsible for this scene I invite you to take another pass through the OT materials and see what you were doing back then.

    I know I just made myself unpopular again, but I am just saying what LRH taught us. That’s all.

    I’m not making anyone wrong here, I am making us all right.

    ML Tom

    • Jeff permalink*
      September 23, 2010 6:11 pm

      Tom, thanks for very eloquently expressing your opinions and viewpoints. You obviously feel strongly about this. I am not sure, however, who the “we” or “us” is that you are referring to. I don’t know that you speak for all concerned. There are many former Scientologists and former Sea Org, myself included, who have moved on and have no further interest in the subject, other than bringing an end to abuses. Possibly “I” would be a more appropriate pronoun rather than “we.” That said, I wish you well on your journey.

    • September 23, 2010 7:27 pm

      To Tom,

      you said:
      All of this whining about what DM and the “Sea Org” has done to us is make us weaker. LRH said in KSW that the finest organizations in history …….”

      We, as in the people on this blog are not whining. We are communicating. Something we were not allowed to do within the church otherwise we were enturbulating. lol.

      We are exchanging ideas, thoughts, feelings etc etc. This is something that is looked down upon by the current church management.

      And that points you at a effect. What we are doing here and now is at cause. Nobody is threatening to take away our eternity here, no threats of sending us to the rpf if you get out of line, no abuse etc etc and telling us what we can and what we can’t openly, honestly and directly communicate about.

      And nobody is telling us who we can communicate to. No cutting of our comm lines.

      And quite frankly, it’s a breath of fresh air. 🙂

      • Virgil permalink
        September 23, 2010 10:04 pm

        Jeff and Kathy, I’m not saying there are no abuses because there is. All I am saying is that there is a much bigger picture and WE are all in the same boat in that picture.

        Sure, we are free and standing in the sun right now, but there are 10,000 nuclear devices sitting poised, ready to fire, ready to eliminate us all. We already have the Patriot Act and this has taken away a lot of our freedom. My cell phones constantly tapped is not freedom to me. It means future enslavement.

        My reminder to us all is that we may be free from the yoke of DM and the Sea Org, but there is a much bigger, much hungrier monster out there waiting to eat us all.

        ML Tom

    • brendon permalink
      September 23, 2010 11:40 pm

      Although you say Marty is goint to “unseat the twerp,” I have yet to see how DM can be unseated.

      All the expose TV shows, all the independents complaining how suppressive he is, and all the bad press doesn’t change the fact he still has his hand on the money. And with that he has the power. Who can fire him?

      As near as I can figure it, he would have to be convicted of some serious crime and physically removed, or die in office. Even then it is entirely possible the next person in charge would be one of his inner circle and just as whacked out.

      The wisest man you knew wasn’t smart enough to create a succession mechanism for the COS that could be used to deal with a rogue leader.

      • September 24, 2010 2:14 am

        to brendon,

        actually he did, he put in checks/balance, that would be csi, but as marty
        pointed out, miscavige has people posted there too.

        marty wrote a whole blog about it.

        miscavige found loopholes and exploited them.

        as for waiting for him to die off or go to jail etc.

        me, personally will walk away, go up my bridge
        in the independent field, florish and prosper and be happy.

        i will speak out and help others as best as i can.

        but i’ve paid my dues and i’m done.

        i’ve got my get out of jail card and i’m using it lol 🙂

      • September 24, 2010 2:19 am

        to tom/virgil,

        dude, thanks for your comm. i have to disagree.

        things should fine. no more worrying about nukes going off.

        if you are so worried, i suggest you go up your bridge so that
        you can have the ability to go exterior with full perception/cause
        100% & without complications.

        then you will know after you drop the bod that you are free, ok lol 🙂

    • Aeolus permalink
      September 24, 2010 2:32 am

      The way this discussion was framed it’s easy to lose sight of a couple of things. LRH said the way to clear the planet is one person at a time. And the successful attitude to get something done (including this) is insouciance, not seriousness.

      If the Sea Org came to believe their primary job was taking on the CIA, AMA, APA, KGB etc., it’s not surprising that things got too serious. But if that’s the case, they also had taken their eye off the ball. Caring for that one person at a time, the one in front of you, got lost in the shuffle. And somewhere along the way, toughness came to be associated with yelling, with force, with orders delivered in tones of anger or no sympathy.

      The toughest people I know are calm, even playful, and almost never try to create action by impressing others with the seriousness of the situation. They create action by example. And they care about the person in front of them.

      • September 24, 2010 3:22 am

        to Aeolus,

        you are spot on lol 🙂 I couldn’t agree with you more.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 24, 2010 6:18 am

      Dear Tom,

      I think you are focused on a bigger picture. That is very good.

      When there Clear and Present Danger or an ongoing Dangerous environment ~~ it is very easy to get focused on the immediate Danger. It is good that you are looking over and beyond, I commend you for that.

      For me, the 400 locked down at INT BASE including Heber Jentzsch is too much an attention grabber for me to think of bigger concepts. I want Present time abuse to end. I want the convenient “admin SP declares” which are clearly politically done for Admin reasons to end so that parents are not disconnected from their kids……another form of ABUSE.

      So while I truly support your concepts, I am too focused on immediate ways to shine the light on practices that have no right to be called “Church of Scientology.”

      Applying OSA Network Series #15 on Vets is ABUSE. Dirty tricks and Black Ops on Sea Org Vets is ABUSE. My personal agenda is focused on the ABUSE.

      More power to others like you that wish to handle other aspects.

    • September 25, 2010 6:11 pm

      Tom, I totally get where you are coming from. Totally.

      Your post really made me think. You are right regarding the responsibility. But, taking responsibility for the situation does not result in effective action. Knowing DM is needs to be removed does not mean that you can be effective in taking him out. Action requires knowledge of how to act. Action also requires correct information – which was and is severely lacking. Too many liars, and too many hidden communication lines.

      I revisited some events in the crazy period in 1981-1983. I was on the BC, trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Mayo left to do the AAC. The mission holders meeting. Kingsley Wimbush and “de-dinging.” Jon Zegel’s tapes, which he later recanted. The RTC being created, and Miscavige taking over, along with Pat and Annie Broeker (whom I had never heard of until the AAC had already been formed).

      During the period, Captain Bill Robertson did a special briefing to the BC students, in which he said, and I quote “Any real OT can fry a chicken at 25 feet, but we don’t do it because it is out reality.”

      We had a change in the course sup during the period – an SO ex-exec who was forever banned from being an executive, and was busted to be the BC sup. Needless to say, I was suspicious. But, in the event, she was awesome – her last name was Stevens, and I can’t remember her first name.

      I had one barometer at that time: Was the BC standard, or not? Did Scientology exist in this church. That was what I could SEE. And, actually, the situation at that time got better.

      Don’t get me wrong – there was a lot of shit happening. Wendell Reynolds and the whole crazy “Finance Police.” He said, and I quote “We are going to slam dunk this planet!”

      But, here is my point: Scientology will not survive because a group makes it survive, the SO notwithstanding. Scientology will only survive because people learn it and use it. Individuals will make it survive. They will coalesce into groups, of course, but each member of the group is responsible for knowing and applying Scientology.

      On the BC, the only effective action for me was to fully complete the course and learn the tech. No matter what happens organizationally, politically, or in any other way, if people are trained, Scientology lives on, like seeds in the scorched earth after a forest fire.

      My other point is I don’t see anyone being able to wave a magic wand and having it all go away. Let’s say an SO member decides he’s had enough, and will handle DM. What is he going to do? Ride in on his white stallion, wave the sword, and smite the oppressor? No, he will have to devise a course of effective action, and that course is not inside the church. Maybe Heber and Yeager are thinking they will handle the problem from within the hole. More power too them, but it appears to me that Rinder and Rathbun are doing a more effective job outside the confines of a DM-dominated environment. And, so am I.

      One more thing. We are here now. The thing to do is to handle it in PT, with the tools we have. I think we need to expose the craziness of the existing church, and apply Scientology. That should do it.

      • Mike Hobson permalink
        September 30, 2010 7:22 pm

        Your new BC Supervisor was Chris Stevens, formerly Deputy Commanding Officer Int Management Org (D/CO IMO) under Kerry Gleason. I was there at IMO for several months in 1981.

        Ten years later, in 1991, I was her Course Admin for the SHSBC under her at ASHO Foundation (as well as the Tech Films I/C). She was married to a non-Sea Org carpenter and everyone knew her as Chris Montgomery. She did the original SHSBC under Ron Hubbard himself at Old St. Hill.

        Michael A. Hobson

  33. Joe Pendleton permalink
    September 23, 2010 7:07 am

    Karen, You bring up a number of important issues here, but I really want to comment on your overall subject. When I was taken off course and post because of a 2D ethics cycle and basically “wasted”, I couldn’t help but thing – “geez. THIRTY FIVE YEARS OF TECH EXPERIENCE AND SUCCESS (as an auditor, CS and course supe). How can the church hope to clear the planet and just waste an experienced tech guy – and successful public lecturer on Scientology and LRH tech?” And yes, screamed at and extorted for money by teenage SO members!!! And ashamed now that I paid up to a certain extent as I wallowed in propitiation.

    BUT my point to you here is that since reading Marty and Jeff’s stuff and become familiar with you (in an online sense of course!)I now see that what I experienced was pretty much business as usual and kind of small potatoes compared with you and some others. I mean, the idea “allegedly” is to “clear the planet”, so………….how is that accomplished by getting rid a Class XII TRAINED BY L.RON HUBBARD HIMSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do people understand the import of those words? You were trained by (and worked cosely with) Ron!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And of course, there were others, like David Mayo (you would know who these others were – I was never in the SO – I joined Org staff in 1970 when I was 19).

    And, yeah, the disrespect shown by young people to someone like yourself…..well, the truth is that these young people are reflecting the value system and group ethic that they have been heavily indoctrinated in. Some other time, I’ll mention what kind of respect was EXPECTED from me as a teenage or admin staff member towards AUDITORS, but truthfully I just KNEW that when I was young and on staff.

    You see, I don’t really think the current church thinks of it as killing the golden goose to waste Class XIIs and experts in Scientology technology. You need to be “gotten rid of” because you question authority. Like Stalin operated. You threaten the control the church takes over its parishoners – control of their thoughts, comm lines, second dynamic……..all to the end of ESPECIALLY controlling their MONEY (moolah, bread, dinero……). So, when you threaten this control and source of TONS of money in ANY way, you are punished and gotten rid of. Your expertise in Scientology AND YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS OVER DECADES apparently stand for nothing.

    By the way, love your stories of one on ones with Ron – keep them coming.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 24, 2010 3:32 am

      Dear Joe,

      Thanks for this input. 35 years of experience and time track, and sledgehammer Ethics.

      Longevity and Contribution unrecognized. This is very much a recurring theme.

      LRH very clearly states that when an upstat is penalized, a downstat occurs. It’s a natural law. It happens over and over again. the sheer longevity of contribution is not recognized.

      Heber Jentzsch my former husband used to tell me on many an occasion “You are as good as last week’s stats.”

      Witness the way Jeff Hawkins was treated in his 34th and 35th year of service. Punched sadistically by Miscavige. What acknowledgement for getting DMSMH into the top Best Seller List on the New York Times !!!

      It is my sincere wish that the INTERNET is a wake-up call to Church abuses. Miscavige is sliding down the slippery slope to his own demise. There is no one who can be a better executioner that one’s own self once one starts on an evil pathway of domination, thuggery, bullying and intense ABUSE.

      But the general culture is ABUSE. That is what it has become. And I hope every single Internet report will impinge enough so internal changes are made. That humble little comm runner in the SO, wildly abused because of his low rank of swamper can be the SO’s worst nightmare in revealing the darker secrets and how abusively he was treated.

      Such is the Internet and digital age of Information.
      Thanks for your story Joe.

  34. September 23, 2010 7:44 am

    Outstanding article, Karen, thank you very much for writing it. Will be shared over here too. 🙂
    If a person cannot create and produce themselves, then the very least they could do is empower those who can. Instead, here, we have the opposite. There are many, many, MANY good, creative, productive, decent people who have walked away over the years. Somehow, lies and suppression do not attract the golden geese, but instead, drive them away……..

    Kim Baker
    Cape Town, South Africa

    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 23, 2010 10:31 pm

      Dear Kim,

      Thanks for chipping in from far away South Africa !
      Back in the day when I did the SHSBC I was on course at St Hill UK with Alan and Wendy Bowman from Johannesburg. We were good friends as fellow students…..and Alan kept in touch with me through the years sending me messages through visiting Missionaires in South Africa and so on.

      I had bad manners to not respond to the last 2 messages, not intentionally ~~ just the hustle and bustle of life ~~~ and I have wondered in the last 2-3 years what their status is…
      just curious. Do you know them ?


    • Karen#1 permalink
      September 23, 2010 10:48 pm

      Dear Kim,

      The LRH Personal Librarian Anne Greig whom I lived with for 2 years gave me a bunch of rare LRH photos she took with her own camera and that started me on a 20 year search for rare LRH photos. I ended up with the largest collection in the world.

      Many moons ago, I befriended an older man in Joberg called Paul Van Nie Kirk. He was the LRH photographer in South Africa. He followed LRH around and photographed LRH with the Prime Minister of South Africa, with LRH visiting Soweto, the shanty town where LRH connected with the blacks as his friends…and all the images of him posing for the LRH bust etc etc etc.

      Paul and I talked on the phone for 3 years. It cost me a fortune in phone bills in those days… I had to win his heart. He did not want to send me these images. Boy, I had to be persuasive…. Finally he sent me a huge bunch of these rare images he shot. I sent all the originals to Ted Horner who was F & E at GOLD at the time. (Films and Equipment) Ted and others were thrilled. These were unknown photos not even in their archives.

      It was a wonderful cycle. Wonder what happened to Paul Van Nie Kirk ? Would you like me to send you some rare LRH images in South Africa ? I have some beauties. Email me

      • September 28, 2010 7:21 am

        Dear Karen,

        My apologies for the extremely long delay in replying to you. I am honoured by not one, but TWO responses from you. Thank you very much! 🙂

        A lot to say in return, so will p/m (private mail) you.


  35. Carol permalink
    September 23, 2010 8:23 pm

    Wow beautifully written article….absolute truth. Thank you for writing it.

    Love Carol

  36. idle org permalink
    September 25, 2010 5:39 pm

    In the bigger picture, DM sent many powerful, able people away……..

    …….so that they would someday come back to take him down as they are now doing.

    Basic ethics tech about the criminal thetan ultimately doing himself in, as it were.

    And I’d say that DM is rapidly approaching the last desperate act he is capable of……confuse and destroy.

    Great article, Karen!

  37. OLD CUFF permalink
    September 29, 2010 6:48 pm

    Dear Karen,

    LRH discusses the various conditions of Exchange in policy. Over the years the C of $ has descended from “exchange in abundance”, when it was under LRH supervision, to a condition of “rip off”. The degree of criminality now extends to staff and public alike.

    The population of Earth, as a prison planet (listen to the lecture “The Free Being”) is populated with a disproportionately high percentage of vicious, psychopathic criminals. These criminals seem to gravitate heavily toward positions of authority government and religion. The history of Earth is littered with billions of graves and shattered lives of social beings who were victims of maniacal “leaders”, such as David McSavage. The philosophers who postulate an exterior state of existence in which serenity, justice and honesty can prevail are uniformly attacked, assassinated, crucified and ridiculed. After their departure the philosophy is converted into a superstition machine the coerces the not-quite-bright peasants, who are incapable of confronting evil, into a extortion scam. Shortly after emerge the golden idols, the golden temples, the prayer wheels, the lavish priesthoods, the rhetoric and rituals. It happened to Buddha, Lao-Tze, Muhammed, Christ, Zoroaster, the Lutherans, the Mormans, etc., etc., etc., ad nausea, ad infinitum.

    So, I ask you — why does ANYONE think that the philosophy, or body of wisdom that is Scientology, would not also descend the dwindling spiral into solidification into monuments of MEST, suppressive usurpation and criminal control?

    The “Church” is an institution built of stone and mortar, mayhem and mortality. It will pass. In a hundred years, a thousand, or ten thousand. The length of time is irrelevant. Meanwhile, personal spiritual immortality remains as indestructible as the Thetan. A thetan cannot do otherwise that persist infinity, as time is a condition of the MEST universe, of which Thetan are not native inhabitants, but the co-conspiratorial creators thereof.

    The technology of Freedom, created and codified by LRH, is a philosophy of spirit that can only be sustained by duplication and application. Church or no church, it is our duty as Scientologists — organized or not — to defend and insist upon the purity of the philosophy. Keeping Scientology Working begins with each one of us individually. Don’t seek to find for whom the bells of Freedom ring. They ring for me and for Thee to the degree that we keep the technology free.


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