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Truth is a Pathless Land

August 18, 2010

A while ago, a friend sent me an interesting speech by Krishnamurti. I found it fascinating. Jiddu Krishnamurti (1895 –1986) was an Indian writer and speaker on philosophical and spiritual issues. As a young man, he attracted a following, and an organization called the Order of the Star grew up around him. In 1929, he decided to dissolve the organization and gave a speech giving his reasons. The speech is titled “Truth is a Pathless Land.”

I decided to post a few excerpts as food for thought. It applies to the current discussion about Scientology and whether or not one needs an organization, or a leader, to follow a spiritual path.

“You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, ‘What did that man pick up?’ ‘He picked up a piece of Truth,’ said the devil. ‘That is a very bad business for you, then,’ said his friend. ‘Oh, not at all,’ the devil replied, ‘I am going to let him organize it.’

“I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.”

“The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.”

“You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers — a miracle — transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.”

“When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.”

“Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern.”

“Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.”

“You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within?”

  1. craig houchin permalink
    August 18, 2010 6:33 am

    This speech is certainly a favorite at our house!

    With simple directness it reveals the fundamental flaw in every religion.

    Seeking Truth requires wide-awake observation and self-determinism.

    Following a religious leader and being part of a religion, a group, a movement, a whatever requires willfull somnambulism, selective observation, and the surrender of self-determinism.

    Thanks for sharing these wise words.

    • Just Me permalink
      August 18, 2010 12:50 pm

      Jeff, thanks for this truly excellent post. So much good food for thought. I haven’t read or seriously considered Krishnamurti and his teachings in forty years.

      Craig, thanks also for your comment: “Seeking Truth requires wide-awake observation and self-determinism.”

      A friend and coach once suggested to me, “First, pay attention. Second, observe. Third, notice what you are observing.”

      He did not suggest that I interpret or impute meaning to what I was noticing.

      He merely said: Pay attention, observe, notice.

      Over the years, when I have followed his simple advice, I have found it to be very useful.

      Just Me

    • lunamoth permalink
      August 18, 2010 3:12 pm

      A friend introduced me to those words many months ago, when I was just throwing off the shackles. I was shocked by how utterly un-guru-like they were and how revolutionary it was for a spiritual leader to say “Don’t follow me.”

      Today, feeling so much farther along in my evolution after having rejected my membership in the c of s, I find something more in them. They are thrilling. I mean, they create that feeling I get when I move through space at great speed, when I fly, when I realize I am in the act of achieving a great dream of mine. It’s the realization of a soul-liberating truth. It’s a sensation of being set free.

      Then, in an involuntary and immediate response, I compare that to the feeling of being a “member,” with creeds out the ass, and written policy about how I must act and how the group must act, and unspoken rules about what I cannot say and what I cannot do…and suddenly “the bridge to total freedom” because that chute in the stockyard through which the animals are driven into the slaughter house. In this case, not to meet physical death but rather to be stunned into unconsciousness by the vastness and overwhelming purpose and significance of the organization; to lose my own autonomy and determinism, and all memory of my personal spiritual questions and viewpoints and purposes as they’re sundered to the incessant production “products” by the “spiritual machine.”

      I can see now that spiritually, the experience of a highly organized, codified and regimented organization was always doomed to become such, and that I knew it from the start.

      I remember the tingling feelings of dread, the premonitions of danger that I often felt when first starting in scienotology whenever I came into contact with sea org members. (Sorry Jeff – nothing personal). The uniforms. The imperiousness and the assumption of deserved power over all other lifeforms because one’s purpose is so ‘holy,’ that which is often referred to as “tone-40” or “laser-like intention” but which is really the complete and total refusal/inability to grant beingness to other viewpoints, other purposes, other intentions.

      And the more I became aware of the size of the organization and of its steam-roller
      intention and its viewpoint of being above the laws of man, the more I had to squash my gut response to those things.

      I didn’t personally go that far into the maw of the beast. I managed to remain one of those little fishes that swim blithely among the sharp teeth, always remaining close to the freedom of the open mouth. Others went deeper into the mouth, into the throat, even into the belly of the beast.
      Some, like Jonah, have been spit out and survived. Some have never been heard from again.

      Krishnamurti’s words are true for me.

      • August 18, 2010 8:22 pm


        Nice, lunamoth. I know exactly what you mean.

      • Freetothink permalink
        August 18, 2010 8:27 pm

        lunamoth, I know that “envy” is one of the “7 deadly sins” but I have to admit I “envy” 🙂 your ability to express yourself so clearly & rapidly.

        So many people on this blog , Marty’s blog & many other blogs express themselves so eloquently & effortlessly. I wish I could find the time to read all articles & all comments & participate in many of the discussions.

        For the time being I have to satisfy myself with peeking once in a while & express my admiration 🙂

        Jeff & participants of this blog, thanks for putting words to so many of my thoughts. Hugs & kisses


      • earthmother permalink
        August 18, 2010 8:59 pm

        Ah, lunamoth, so well said!

        Jeff, thank you for sharing. You always bring to the table the very best in thought provoking material.

      • August 18, 2010 9:04 pm

        Wow, lunamoth, you words have reached the very depths of my being. How very well communicated are your concepts and analogies. You have said, with such clarity, what I have been thinking for years but could never fully express. Thank you. Krishnamurti’s words are true for me too, as well as yours.

        Love, Synthia

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 18, 2010 9:26 pm

        Merci bien, Marie Joe.

      • Mary Jo permalink
        August 18, 2010 11:06 pm

        Wow Lunamoth, you have an uncanny ability to express MY feelings and thoughts if I was eloquent and gifted with words!!! Holy cow!

        From one who reached the belly of the beast and was successfully spat out! — And is thriving! 🙂

      • Karen#1 permalink
        August 19, 2010 12:05 am

        Lunamoth ~~
        Beautifully spoken. Superb post

      • Grateful permalink
        August 19, 2010 1:09 am

        This so resonates with me and the freedom I have felt since casting aside the shackles I wore in order to be a part of the church group. Especially that feeling about the Sea Org. I remember the first time I was in LA. I was not able to verbalize the feeling I had about the SO, but it made me feel that my determinism was going to be overwhelmed. I had gotten sick and was being given a PTS interview and the SO is what came to mind, but I knew that it was not OK to say that, so I didn’t. Later, I was doing a 10 Aug on somebody and the SO came up. I accepted it, but it was a withold, of sorts. It is so nice to be able to finally say it, instead of having so so so many opinions that I dare not speak of. Wow. What a relief.

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 19, 2010 1:24 am

        Allen, thanks.

        Earthmother, I figured you’d relate to that!

        Synthia – just as your posts always find a harmonic in my own thoughts and feelings!

        Mary Jo, you were one of the few I was thinking of when I was mentioned survivors. You have survived in EVERY sense. ❤

        Karen, thank you. I always read and admire your own viewpoints.


      • lunamoth permalink
        August 19, 2010 3:52 am

        Grateful – That’s it exactly – the feeling that your determinism is about to be overwhelmed. You said it.

      • Tony DePhillips permalink
        August 19, 2010 12:18 pm

        Hi Lunamoth.

        You are always pretty good but you kicked that one up a notch, BAM!! You were in the zone on that peice of art work!

        “and suddenly “the bridge to total freedom” because that chute in the stockyard through which the animals are driven into the slaughter house. In this case, not to meet physical death but rather to be stunned into unconsciousness by the vastness and overwhelming purpose and significance of the organization; to lose my own autonomy and determinism, and all memory of my personal spiritual questions and viewpoints and purposes as they’re sundered to the incessant production “products” by the “spiritual machine.” CLASSIC!! Thank you!!

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 19, 2010 6:49 pm

        Thank you, Tony.

        I would like to add, if points are being given for putting the most words into a sentence, I deserve a prize. Man, I run out of breath re-reading that thing. : )

      • Tony DePhillips permalink
        August 20, 2010 1:53 am

        Hi Lunamoth,

        Yes that was quite a sentence. You could compete with Dan Sherman…
        🙂 That was a joke. I am not 1.1. Let me out of this chute!!

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 20, 2010 3:11 pm


        Forget it , buddy. Once you’re in the chute the only way out is as a package of breakfast sausage.


      • Tony DePhillips permalink
        August 23, 2010 2:10 am

        Can’t I be a spiral ham?? Pretty please!!

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 24, 2010 5:31 am


        You made coffee come out my nose. I do believe you ARE a spiral ham!

    • Rebecca-Tribecca permalink
      August 19, 2010 8:22 am

      Oh you are one soul-searching thought provoking blogger Jeff.
      I read this one 2x straight through.
      I have asked myself why I went from OT VIII back to the Catholic Church.

      Perhaps it’s as simple as liking someone that I can talk to in terms of getting it all of my chest. This one cannot do while doing a spiritual journey alone.

      The Catholic Church has never been known to use confessional data against a penitent unlike the Church of Scientology. While I did not agree that the Catholic priests did not turn in FBI agent Robert Hanssen for espionage to the Russians (which his confessional priests knew about for years), I did learn that confessional data was inviolate in the Catholic Church.

      I do not feel I am held in cage in the Catholic Church, but I do agree that no Organization can make you free, especially when they demand incessant $$$$$ to do it.

  2. Sam permalink
    August 18, 2010 7:57 am

    Your selection of Krishnamurti quotes has piqued my interest. I think I’ll check him out on Amazon. Thanks for the post 🙂

  3. Cool Observer permalink
    August 18, 2010 8:30 am

    “The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world”

    Max Born (German Physicist. Nobel Prize for Physics in 1954. 1882-1970)

  4. Joe Pendleton permalink
    August 18, 2010 9:47 am

    And yet he himself is leading us to a truth (or attempting to) by HIS communication. If not leading, I guess, then allowing us to cognite from “his” truth.

    I studied Scientology for over 35 years within the church and I had cognitions and case gain throughout that time. I would say that I reached the point where I was no longer able to study within the church when HEAVY amounts of force and coercion were thrown my way and it was made clear that I would NOT be allowed to have my own point of view, that I could never reject a datum (where that datum was important to the organization). And THAT is the real problem I think with organized religion.

    But I don’t think there is anything wrong with a philosopher organizing HIS truths and presenting them to others to consider and accept or reject. That is a path many of us have appreciated as we are opened to new ideas and ways of thinking (and realizations and greater knowledge I might add).

    • Tony DePhillips permalink
      August 19, 2010 12:23 pm

      Hi Joe!!
      I agree with what you say here. It is obvious to me that you can write and share truth. You could also have people auditing others without being “organized”. If the tech was free to use and was encouraged to be used in the frame of mind of true self -determinism instead of selfish-determinism, then the tech would become way more valuable.

  5. Fidelio permalink
    August 18, 2010 10:00 am

    Thanks Jeff,

    since officially having left the CoS and in the process of finding the decision to do so, I started to look around and read a lot what others have/had to say.

    On that track, I found Vadim Zeland’s Transurfing (contemporary Russian writer) very beneficial since radically non-organizational, laying out the mechanics HOW it comes about almost inevitably that movements tend to deteriorate into cults at worst and how to avoid to be sucked into and thus away from one’s own path to truth. So thanks for pointing out this Krishnamurti speech, it’s beautifully disinfecting and interestingly tieing into Zeland’s modern views.

    (Today, it’s embarrassing to me that I had shoved aside Krishnamurti because of some derogatorary comments by Hubbard I had run across while totally in. 🙂 )

    And OSHO, another remarkable Indian teacher (1931-1990) is certainly someone, too, to blow up almost brutally any organizational idea when it comes to the very personal path to truth.

    Hell, I went through quite some emotional turmoil when realizing how caged I had admitted myself to be by Hubbard’s highly judgmental and entrapping tenets. And honestly – it happened to me out of a good junk of laziness, happily accepting Hubbard’s full-mouthed pretenses that HE had found the way and I just need to follow – Halleluja!!

    Parallel teachings – first all about “ARC – the universal solvent” then mixed up with more and more excluding and disconnecting evaluation and invalidation as one goes along with the subject – the confusion about these contradictions was what stuck me to that cult but safed me at the other hand from joining the Sea Org, which seems to be a textbook example of the culminating mess of organized religion.

    I highly appreciate the education you provide on that blog, it makes it easier and faster to find one’s own path to truth – and it allows me still a bit of my beloved laziness 😉


  6. August 18, 2010 12:14 pm

    At some point in 03′, I reestablished contact with a cousin of mine. We had last seen each other in 83′ when he came through Portland and stayed for a short visit. We had talked about scn then but he didn’t warm up to the idea much. Before he left he gave me a book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Said it was his favorite book at the time. When we reconnected it wasn’t long before he asked me if I was still involved in scn and I told him, although I was no longer active in the church I was still very much a scio. A few days later he emailed me Krishnamurti’s speech (your blog post) and while I liked what I read, I didn’t really have anything to do with me. Ha! So much has changed since then. No longer searching for or in need of a guru but I will take the typewriter. 🙂

    Thanks Jeff.

  7. August 18, 2010 12:17 pm

    I particularly enjoy this paragraph:

    “When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.”

    Do you know of any organization, other than Scientology, that has such voluminous material (dare I even say a “technology”) on how to start, build up, run (but never ever dissolve) all sorts of organizations? It’s the most organized organization ever (though it oddly often acts completely disorganized).

    Ya know, I originally considered myself a Christian and then left that faith. I never thought about it much when I left and no one ever tried to get me to stay on any fold. I never felt so pulled back or tied to that faith as I did and still do Scientology. Could this just be due to the fact that it’s SO ORGANIZED that it must be true. It’s too easy to fall back on — to look to it as an authority, because it IS organized.

    I think this article really gets to the core of the problem and why even though this group commits heinous crimes, it is so hard to take down. I believe somewhere in the sober contemplation of that which is written here, lies the answer to the final dismantling.

  8. Grateful permalink
    August 18, 2010 1:51 pm

    Yes, and I believe (from listening to early lectures) that Scientology started out this way, where you would discover truths for yourself without anyone pushing the proper beliefs and mindset or agreement with doctrine. What it has become in the church is what Ron himself descrcibes in the lecture Differences Between Scientology and Other Practices:

    “Now let’s see how a person would make his gains in this field. He would make his gains in this field by being shown a way. But how far could we show him this way? We’d have to show him the way in such a way as it didn’t invalidate him nor bring him to a preconclusion.”

    “This thing ‘the way’ or ‘the road to knowingness’ is sown with many pitfalls, and very possibly the intentions of many earlier endeavors might have been in this sphere. But in showing ‘the way’ they also began to map the pavement and put up the milestones. And after a while, when they became modern enough, they did not neglect advertising posters on both sides of the right of way saying all sorts of things–such as ‘if you drop enough pennies in the poor box, your soul will…’ ‘Now, you are perfectly at liberty to recognize the truth of our teachings, but if you for one single second do not espouse the whole of them, we’re going to do something awfully nasty to you.”

    “This kind of an approach where Ferdinand of Isabella fame could have all manner of people tortured, maimed, ruined, burned, just because they thought there was a different syllable in certain lines or should be another syllable someplace else. These are the pitfalls of showing the way. After a while, why everybody becomes certain this is the way, and then just make sure that all the signposts tell the person what he is to conclude while traveling on that way. And when you’ve got that, you’ve got a road down and a road to slavery.”

    “I don’t care what you conclude is true. I haven’t the slightest wish about it one way or the other.”

    “So, all auditing does is release the person’s ability to inspect, and when he can inspect without fear he can know the truth of things…”

    “But the second we all agree on what’s true, and that these things are truths, then we can get very lazy, and we never have to think of it again, and Ron can write it down in a book, and the next generation that comes along only has to memorize this so they will know what the truth is…”

    By the time I got into Scientology in the 70’s, the lazy mindset that ‘Ron said it so it’s true’ was already well on its way. We all know what has happened with personal inspection and truth in the last couple of decades. Though I grieve for those who have been hurt, I consider it a very good thing that it has come to this point because it is now being inspected again and I believe many in the independent field are finding personal truths and helping others do the same. This is something I can agree with.

    Thanks, Jeff, for another very thought-provoking article. I look forward to each new post.

    • Freetothink permalink
      August 19, 2010 6:25 am

      “So, all auditing does is release the person’s ability to inspect, and when he can inspect without fear he can know the truth of things…”

      So many Scientologists on line are afraid to inspect. Many don’t even grant themselves the beingness of being able to confront data & think for themselves. They are afraid to LOOK!!!!This quote brings a whole new meaning to the “Truth Rundown” from the SP Times.

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 19, 2010 3:31 pm

        …yeah, like “running down the truth” and shooting it dead.

  9. brendon permalink
    August 18, 2010 3:34 pm

    Great stuff. I’d never seen that.

  10. dora N. permalink
    August 18, 2010 4:11 pm

    Wonderful, thank you.

  11. routeplanner permalink
    August 18, 2010 5:58 pm

    The danger of organisations is only when they ‘become your chief concern’ rather than the facilitators they ought to be. COS was not intended to free anyone (you do this yourself with the aide of an auditor) but to make that freedom easier to attain.

    The problems of religion described here could apply to political parties or any group – I guess this is known in Scn as the 3 dynamic engram (which COS is now a byword in).

  12. Peter McMahon permalink
    August 18, 2010 6:22 pm

    Jeff, I like this post. This is a topic I’ve struggled with over the years since leaving Scn. I think it’s hard to walk this path alone, but rewarding.

  13. Marta permalink
    August 18, 2010 7:00 pm

    Beautiful and so appropriate, Jeff. You have quite a knack (gift) for picking and sharing the gems that cut to the chase and ring true; that acknowledge and value us.

  14. It's me again permalink
    August 18, 2010 7:29 pm

    Hmmm. Very interesting subject Jeff. A lot to comment on and could be a subject for a book.
    I will give it a shot.

    I have a Libertarian viewpoint on most things, so I first want to say that I am not a big group fan. I don’t like people in a group making a bunch of laws that interfere with my personal freedoms and I don’t like any group whether it is a church, a government, or any type of ideological group making rules that regulate what I must or must do with my body, mind, money, food, children, mest or life in general.

    With that said, I understand that when it comes to individuals living or working together or groups having a common purpose, policies and laws have to be made because there are just some who would act out their insanities on the rest of the group and structure is needed to forward the purpose of the group. But too many restrictions can become a very slippery slope if not kept in- check.

    Scientology and whether or not one needs an organization, or a leader, to follow a spiritual path.

    That depends. Does any religion need an organization or leader? If you are a Christian, you could read the bible at home and live you life according to what the teachings are in your bible. There is no need to go to a church. The same could apply to a lot of other religions. The problem with Scientology is that you can stay at home, learn the technology and apply it in your life on the training side of things and be perfectly happy doing that. Once you want auditing, then you are getting into a group activity. Most trained Auditors, who want auditing, don’t want an Auditor who audits him, is his ethics officer and also his C/S.

    For those who would rather have an organization of people, big or small, behind their auditor, then yes in regards to delivering auditing, like it or not, you enter a group.

    Does an organization need structure? YES
    Does an organization need a leader (one who leads people)? NO
    Does an organization need people in-charge of keeping things running? YES

    Does any group need a dictator, absolutely not.

    • Karen#1 permalink
      August 19, 2010 12:03 am

      Does an Organization need checks and balances ? YES
      Does any entity (Religion, Corporation, Business) need to able to correct a leader who is off the rails ? YES
      Does Law enforcement need to intervene when acts against the law are being committed ? YES
      Can the Religious Cloaking “Ministerial Exception” give permissivenes to illegal acts which are against the laws of the land? NO

      Let’s see what the appellate court (9th Circuit Court of Appeals) says about
      “Ministerial Exception.”

      • It's me again permalink
        August 19, 2010 1:23 am

        Karen #1,

        Ministerial Exception. Interesting, I will have to investigate that one. Is this why the church was pushing for everyone to do the Minister Handbook Course and become minister years ago or was this just a coincidence?

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 19, 2010 4:02 am

        I recall clearly “scriptures” of the “church” which admonish it’s followers “never do anything illegal.”

        If that is the case, how can illegal acts be scripture?

      • Tony DePhillips permalink
        August 19, 2010 12:27 pm

        You crack me up Karen…

      • It's me again permalink
        August 19, 2010 5:32 pm


        You got me. I understand that the government shouldn’t get involved in religious believes, and I don’t want that happening. What I don’t understand is how the church gets away with some of the stuff they do. Example: A religion that believes that it is ok to stone a person, but the law trumps those believes in our country. How the church gets away with child labor is beyond me. There are laws against child labor, no matter what the child signs. Besides that, is a child signing a contract even binding?

        I understand that some of this stuff is hear say and not provable in a court of law and it hard to get around religious freedoms. This is why I think there should be General civil law suites against David Miscavige himself with witnesses testifying.

        I am not a legal expert, but I would think with enough General civil law suites against David Miscavige, something would have to give, even if the publicity kills him.

    • Grateful permalink
      August 19, 2010 12:58 am

      I have similar thoughts about government. My studies over the last few years into liberty and tyranny in government have been a factor (not insignificant) in my questioning the organization and operation of the church.

      I am filled to the brim with love for the people I have met here, searching for truth as I am, exchanging ideas, helping me to clarify and broaden mine.

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 19, 2010 4:03 am


        I’m looking forward to more of your contributions!


      • Mickey permalink
        August 20, 2010 9:49 am

        It’s me again said, “I don’t like people in a group making a bunch of laws that interfere with my personal freedoms…..” and

        Grateful said, “My studies over the last few years into liberty and tyranny in government have been a factor…. in my questioning the organization and operation of the church.”

        You might then find this “non-fiction” work most interesting. Tyranny has been given a bad name in these modern political times. This gentleman’s book will do wonders to round out your ideas associated with the subject!

      • Mickey permalink
        August 20, 2010 6:47 pm

        I said, “Tyranny has been given a bad name…”
        Whoa Nellie…. meant this sentence to say anarchy NOT tyranny. Rather really meant freedom from tyranny! Being an anarchist in the sense of “you are not the boss of me”.

      • Grateful permalink
        August 20, 2010 9:01 pm


        Thanks for the clarification. I thought it sounded odd, but thought I would check out the book to see what was meant.

        You have got me started and I could go on a political rant right here, but I won’t.

  15. BBSox permalink
    August 18, 2010 7:55 pm

    Thanks for this post Jeff – it broke up a lot of mass that had been holding me down. I bet that Miscavidge would declare Krishnamurti an enemy if he was still alive . . . .


  16. Valkov permalink
    August 18, 2010 9:27 pm

    Krishnamurti has long been one of my mom’s favorite inspirations.

    I don’t know if a Youtube video can be embedded in my comment, so I would like to post a link to a wistful little song by the GratefulDead. The song is called “Ripple”, and I feel it expresses just what Krishnamurti and you are saying, in a beautiful quiet way.

    And here are the lyrics.

    RIPPLE, by Robert Hunter written in 1970:

    If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
    And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung,
    Would you hear my voice come thru the music,
    Would you hold it near as it were your own?

    It’s a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken,
    Perhaps they’re better left unsung.
    I don’t know, don’t really care
    Let there be songs to fill the air!

    Ripple in still water,
    When there is no pebble tossed,
    Nor wind to blow.

    Reach out your hand if your cup be empty,
    If your cup is full may it be again,
    Let it be known there is a fountain,
    That was not made by the hands of men.

    There is a road, no simple highway,
    Between the dawn and the dark of night,
    And if you go no one may follow,
    That path is for your steps alone.

    Ripple in still water,
    When there is no pebble tossed,
    Nor wind to blow.

    You who choose to lead must follow
    But if you fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who’s to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home.

  17. RenegadeX permalink
    August 19, 2010 4:07 am

    Wow, that is fantastic. So much about how I feel put into words. Thank you!

  18. Leftover Pods permalink
    August 19, 2010 2:01 pm

    Thanks, Jeff. Another helpful beauty. My take on it:

    When you get to the point of allowing someone else dictate what, when and how to: eat, sleep, maintain health care, handle finances, choose a spouse, raise family, socialize, educate, raise or keep pets, clean, choose a career, organize, do maintenance and repairs, drive, shop, speak, read, write, view, think, and believe,

    The question arises: Do YOU really still exist? Even caged prisoners can still read, write, think and believe at their own discretion. The moment you allow another to decide what you believe, YOU slowly begin to disappear.

    This has always been the case in organized religion. In Scientology’s current world, step out of line just one step out of any of the above, and see how fast you become “invisible” to every scientologist around you, whether friend, family, business associate, staff.

    All but one: the ethics “officer”, and always with only one choice: conform or you won’t exist. The truth, though, is that you will cease to exist to the degrees you conform.

  19. Aeolus permalink
    August 19, 2010 2:31 pm

    LRH himself said that we are each unique as individual spiritual beings, and that the reactive bank is what we have in common with others. From that, it stands to reason that the larger and more regimented the group, the more we are dealing with the bank and less with the spirit. So how LRH got from that realization to having his teachings delivered by a rigidly hierarchal paramilitary organization is something that has always puzzled me about the church. I suspect there is no solid logic there, perhaps just LRH trying to make up for a failed purpose as a Navy officer.

    • Valkov permalink
      August 23, 2010 11:35 pm

      I think the delivery was not supposed to be done by the paramilitary Sea Org. It’s function was supposed to be different.

      Most of the delivery was supposed to be done by Field Auditors, Franchises, and Class IV orgs.

      Flag has now essentially destroyed by undermining, all the other organizations and now is busily doing itself in. And rightfully so. Miscavige knows “hara-kiri” (suicide) as the Japanese call it, is the only honorable way out for him and the poisonous organization he has created.

  20. August 19, 2010 4:38 pm

    As brilliant as LRH is, I noticed that in the State Of Man lectures, he speaks very sarcastically and in a very invalidating tone about Krishnamurti. It involves Krishnamurti’s view on being in present time. LRH’s point is actually a good one, that you need to be focused on your future rather than merely on present time. But the way he handles it is so arrogant and it serves to dead-agent Krishnamurti in one fell swoop, completely.

    Not that I’m into LRH-bashing necessarily, I just think that he opened the door to everything we currently see in the church that we don’t like, as well as what we do like. Terms like “wog”, “raw meat”, etc, are so blatantly the opposite of why I got into Scn. It has always bothered me, since day one, how LRH often spoke about other leaders. Other philosophers. So many times it was handled with sarcasm, arrogance and dead-agenting tactics. All of it so unnecessary, even if his data was accurate.

    Now that I’m out, I can finally bitch and moan about it.

    Nice to know that Krishnamurti had some wise things to say. Had I not left the church, I’d have never been allowed to know that.


    • lunamoth permalink
      August 19, 2010 6:45 pm

      A “philosopher,” if indeed that is what LRH was, disparaging other philosophers, is a red flag.
      It’s hard to take that seriously, being beneath the deportment and detached wisdom we
      expect of a philosopher.

      Somewhere inside I have the absolute certainty that the most fundamental truths, the essence of meaning in this life, does not include the nullification of others. I just don’t believe it.

      Now having said it, I have to say I am as guilty as the next one of being critical of others. I have had my own critical words on LRH on this site. But I’m not trying to impart the wisdom of the ages to you when I am so doing. I am, admittedly, ranting, venting or having my own realizations, right or wrong.

      I am willing to concede that right to LRH as well, but ONLY if I am allowed to call it what it was; HE&R, baby.

      Yeah, that’s right. LRH was venting. Or maybe indulging in a little rant, or perhaps he was just being critical, or a little jealous. Krishnamurti was a contemporary of LRH’s, and as such was a competitor. I doubt Krishnamurti saw it like that, but I’m pretty sure LRH would have.

    • Valkov permalink
      August 19, 2010 8:05 pm

      IO, I know exactly what you mean! I am very much not into LRH-bashing, but the effect of even small carping criticisms of others, or little denigrating jokes by him, I think were magnified a thousand-fold by some of his “followers” who jumped on the bandwagon, wanting to be considered part of a select ‘in-group’ to inflate their own self-importance.

      The result was, instead of creating ARC and building bridges to other professionals and ‘seekers of truth’, the CoS became more and morewhatit is now – a closed paranoid society similar to North Korea.

      I recall encountering traces of this back in the 1970s, when a doctrinaire scientologist told me Abraham Maslow, who wrote “Towards a Psychology of Being”, was a ‘squirrel’.

      No. Maslow was an intelligent psychologist who could observe. Scientologists would have done well to validate his work, which actually validated scientology inturn, instead of attacking and shunning him.

      Oh well.

      In Hubbard’s defense, he was perhaps trying tobe folksy and played common social “games” (in the Transactional Analysis sense), which people commonly use to create cliques and set themselves apart from others.

      I think Hubbard, early on, did not realize the extremes of meanness to which humanity was capable of taking his offhand remarks.

      What started out as offhand “in-jokes” became deadly serious “policy”.

      I say this because I see the young Ron as generally liking people too much to be very mean-spirited towards them(us) for long, although he could be quite catty at times.

      I guess it’s obvious I try to give LRH the benefit of the doubt whenever I can, for as long as I can?

      Anyway, I myself never felt comfortable using terms like ‘wog’, raw meat’, etc and have always felt they were unnecessary and degrading.

  21. Mickey permalink
    August 20, 2010 9:21 am

    “You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status.” J. Krishnamutri

    If the above concept is contemplated and compared to the players in our once “accustomed to system of spiritual advancement” (the Bridge) as laid out in Scn, ie. C/S – Auditor – E/O, where does this indeed leave such a triaging triumvirate?

    I say nowhere. Ultimately (ie, beyond all concept of self and seeming perceptions of this world) all there is, is You. So while organizations can be helpful along the way, they are not the final determining authority of one’s enlightenment, awakening, etc. (Just an opinion.)

    • Mickey permalink
      August 20, 2010 9:34 am

      Perhaps a better starting point,

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 21, 2010 1:59 am

        Thanks. This was enlightening.


    • SherryMK permalink
      August 20, 2010 9:33 pm

      …and anyone who can just pull “triaging triumvirate” out her bag deserves to be applauded. Good one Mickey! and I agree..”Nowhere”…exactly. But I wouldn’t have been able to see that if it hadn’t been for all those years spent searching for answers I already had, looking for answers in places other than where they were/are, depending on and granting significance to an organization to acknowledge that I had “made” it.

      • Mickey permalink
        August 21, 2010 3:22 am

        Here’s a heart rendering story of the sort of results that can occur when the triage of the triumvirate goes into action, taking over and making judgment calls about a person’s life. While this paradigm (the triple terminal triage) might work for some, I think it can be concluded that at best it is an inconsistent method in predicting good outcomes.

        One might do well to honestly ask themselves, no matter their chosen path, “Do I really want another entity other than me judging how far (I) have advanced, what is (my) spiritual status’?” It is cross posted from a post from Karen #1 in the comments of Marty’s latest offering, “JB adds to the list of lies from the bunker.” It goes to the very point of the subject of this Krishnamurti piece, I believe.


        “NEW STORY
        I have been in Scientology for over 25 years. During that time I trained to Class V Interned in Milan. I have never been on staff.
        I have been a rather successful businessman and always had gains in Scientology auditing and Rundowns until the year 2001, when for a reason that is a yet unclear to me, I was made to do 10 intensives of sec-check, mainly cleaning cleans, once spending 3 hours on a question that asked if I had been a member of the CIA, when I am an Italian
        Citizen and my only trips to the United States have been to get auditing in Clearwater, Florida, at the Flag Land Base.
        My auditors at Flag, when I told them I felt clean, were, while in session, intensely hostile to me. More than once when I was literally driven to despair and on the edge of bursting in a cry of despair,
        pursing what I felt was a false read, I was told by my Flag auditors, with contempt in their voice, to “knock it off”. and “fess off to the withold”
        I was made to redo Solo NOTs all over again, when I felt there was nothing wrong with it. I was told that it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a blow or EP of a process on that level unless I had a blowdown on each and every action. This is based on a confidential “Directive” blow anything written by David Miscavige that “anyone who claims to get a blow or process EP on Solo NOTs without a full Blowdown is simply at the case level of “DUB-IN” and imagining things. When I politely queries that a
        non-LRH directive could not alter LRH written HCOBs, I was immediately routed to Ethics and told in unclear that questioning the validity of the writings of David Miscavige was in itself a suppressive act.
        I was sent back for more sec-checking. Each time I said I had an ARCX, a disagreement or even the few times I burst into tears, I was asked one question and one question only: “What withold has been missed”.
        I somehow managed to get through the wall of sec-checking and the redo of Solo NOTs, at a cost of more than 80,000 Euros, once I learned the valuable session that it is no longer safe to tell what one thinks in session, and the only other choice given to me by the Ethics officer, over unquestioning obedience was being declared a Supressive person and that each of my Scientology employees (more than a dozen of them)
        would be told to disconnect from a destructively as possible, the goal being apparently to make me bankrupt and destitute in the process.
        I redid OT VIII on the Freewinds. This was not a pleasant experience. Even the few times I was allowed to go on shore, I was being continually watched by my HCO Escort, (security guard) in a manner that was reminiscent of the treatment given to Westerners when they visited and Iron Curtain country at the height of the Cold War..
        I started to question within myself what level of Degradation Scientology had fell into…
        In the 5 years since I “completed” OT VII and VIII for the second time, I found myself, for the first time in my life not doing well and in a state of apathy toward my life, my family and my business.

        (he goes on to say that he got auditing outside the Church by a well known auditor and turned his life around…he is fine now)”

      • Mickey permalink
        August 21, 2010 2:43 pm

        Heart wrenching, (not rendering) is what I meant but did not write.

  22. August 20, 2010 12:45 pm

    When I checked my email last night (after not doing so for a couple of days) I was surprised to find 30 plus comments that had been made on this blog post of Jeff’s. What a treat to read them all! As always…enormous insight brought to the table by all the commenters. Lunamoth, what a wonderful free flowing comment from you! I love it when you pop your cork and let er rip! Leaving scn is certainly proving to be one kick-ass process. As I was reading through all the comments I couldn’t help but notice the shift that has taken place over just a few months. Have you noticed it?

    It’s such a rewarding pleasure to be a part of this journey as well as observe everyone else on their own path pecuilar to them. Most definitely, the further away we get from the scn collective think, the more evident the uniqueness of each individual becomes.

    Even though, for the most part, I have discontinued the practice of using nuts and bolts to secure my conclusions and have gone to using velcro instead (had to do something as I now change my mind on what’s what so damn often), there is one particular conclusion, an old and long forgotten one, that remains bolted down. This is the conclusion that the truth lies within. In other words, I am the guru I have been seeking. All the external organizing, organizations, techinques, methods, “gurus”, doctrines, rituals, spells and the grand illusion of the universe itself, exist only as means of facilitation. My losing sight of this nugget of personal truth really diverted me onto quite an adventureous path that had become acknowledged as being a big mistake. But, that said, it was only a mistake until the moment I recognized the lesson. And at that instant, it never really was a mistake. The notion that it was a mistake was a lie. I have discovered that myself the guru (my higher self), even when appearing to be buried and nonexistent, continues to create the path of awakening for me.

    At that point in time when I met up with LRH and scn, I was actually standing at the buffet table of spiritual practices and I could have picked up anything from this table I wanted and taken it with me. And though I did pick up several different items on this buffet of plenty, I quickly put them back… but when I picked up scn I said, “This is it. This is what I need.” And, I was right. My encouter with LRH and scn and the whole experience, including this leaving scn process I’m currently in the midst of, has been and is, the very thing needed. I have discovered that I actually do know what is best for me. Imagine that!

    • Mickey permalink
      August 20, 2010 6:35 pm

      As usual Monte, your beautiful and all encompassing expression of what I think everyone, who is a serious seeker, experiences. I know I did and have come to the same conclusion. One utilizes the outside-of-oneself specifics (people, situations) as lessons in the classroom of life rather than as a continuously seen and experienced “battlefield” that brings them back to an inner abstract, non-specific state of quiet calm and then back out, less in conflict to the world, but this time “knowing” from a whole new level what to do or say for that given moment required. The challenge is in remembering how simple and gentle (and oh so foreign to our typical previous experiential training) this type of contemplative process can be. Yet such is also very challenging in “retooling” our ways and remembering the practice and implementation of this kind of spiritual endeavor. And see, no appointments to keep to later attend to go “get fixed”, no gurus or authorities depended upon for direction and no fees to pay either!. I likes to liken it to “healing on the fly”!! Once again Monte, just a great summation.

      • August 22, 2010 3:03 pm

        Mickey, much thanks for the ack. As you pointed out, the challenge is remembering how simple and gentle the contemplative process is. I believe that this is also the lesson. A lesson that my LRH and scn experience greatly facilitated.

        And Mickey, as much as I like your expression, “healing on the fly”, it prompts me to ponder and question this notion so many of us appear to have in regards to desiring, needing or wanting to be healed. Mickey, I’m currently of the mind that there is no healing necessary as there never was an actual injury that occurred. If it is true that we are eternal all knowing (not potentially all knowing but fully, in the now, all knowing) beings, then all the drama, conflict, pain, suffering, struggling, healing and so on is nothing but a pretense. If the part of me that has manifested as the Monte identity appears to be in an unknowing and injured state then it is a pretense that the all knowing me is causing. Ummm….just pondering out loud Mickey and in so doing I’m beginning to hear that unmistakenable sound of velcro being pulled apart. Ah, this is so much easier than looking for that damn wrench that I can never seem to keep track of. Praise velcro! 🙂

    • Grateful permalink
      August 20, 2010 8:41 pm

      I just love that “velcro” bit. I have come to that point, as well, where, though not wishy washy, I leave the possibility open that my paradigm almost certainly not complete or perfect. I am always refining. 100% unshakeable uncertainty, as advertised in the C of M promo is a thought-stopper.

    • lunamoth permalink
      August 21, 2010 2:05 am


      Perhaps I’m too much “in it,” but what change are you talking about? I can’t imagine that this many months have passed on this blog without a change, but I have experienced it so gradually I’m afraid
      I don’t see it.

      And the velcro comment was a gem. Exactly!


      • August 22, 2010 3:34 pm

        lunamoth, something that goes with velcro like cream gravy goes with homemade buttermilk biscuits (if your not from the south that comparison may fall flat) is supposition. For myself, I have come to realize that a very important component in the Leaving Scn Process is the unbridled freedom to suppose. The simple question that you posed to me lunamoth i.e., “but what change are you talking about?”, has activated my supposing mode.

        I realize lunamoth that I cannot answer your question because it occurred to me that any “shift” or change that I am perceiving in any aspect of my environment (my universe) is the direct result of my own continuously shifting perspective. This, of course, does not mean that you or anyone else or anything else is not experiencing change, but it does mean to me that the changes I am perceiving are actually my changes not yours or anything else in my universe. In other words, my changes are being mirroed back to me via the universe I’ve created.

        Suppose lunamoth that we are each soveriegn beings and we are each the center of our own universe. And that EVERYTHING that we perceive or consider (on any level) is the manifestation of our own unique creation. Okay, we’ve very rapidly arrived at the point where my supposition begins to fizzle, crack and pop because here is where I attempt to suppose “how” and I run into something that I’m not able to suppose through.

        Thanks for the inspiration lunamoth. This is great fun!

  23. arbfn permalink
    August 20, 2010 6:16 pm

    This is an awesome post by Jeff and discussion by others.

    Robert Hunter’s lyrics resonated with me in particular because I had music in mind too although, in my case, it was this Jackson Browne song:

    A great deal of freedom is gained by being able to adopt and discard viewpoints (one’s own and others’) at will with full awareness and speed — IMHO. This is an ability I’m developing. Thanks to LRH and beings on this blog for sharing your viewpoints. In LRH’s case: I reserve my right to accept or reject his work as suits my purposes, however, and will not brook the SO’s or CoS’s interpretations or coercion. Nor should anyone else, although that’s a matter of choice, personal awareness or lack of it, and the laws of the land (the benign ones, at least).

    • Valkov permalink
      August 24, 2010 7:10 am


      Thanks, Jackson Browne wrote many great soulful songs. Here’s one much on my mind as I read Jeff’s blog here, and Marty’s blog too. So I dedicate it to all who have suffered for their idealism.

      BEFORE THE DELUGE by Jackson Browne

      Some of them were dreamers
      And some of them were fools
      Who were making plans and thinking of the future

      With the energy of the innocent
      They were gathering the tools
      They would need to make their journey back to nature.

      While the sand slipped through the opening
      And their hands reached for the golden ring
      With their hearts they turned to each other`s heart for refuge
      In the troubled years that came before the deluge.

      Some of them knew pleasure
      And some of them knew pain
      And for some of them it was only the moment that mattered

      And on the brave and crazy wings of youth
      They went flying around in the rain
      And their feathers, once so fine, grew torn and tattered

      And in the end they traded their tired wings
      For the resignation that living brings
      And exchanged love`s bright and fragile glow
      For the glitter and the rouge
      And in a moment they were swept before the deluge.

      Now let the music keep our spirits high
      And let the buildings keep our children dry
      Let creation reveal its secrets by and by
      By and by–
      When the light that`s lost within us reaches the sky

      Some of them were angry
      At the way the earth was abused
      By the men who learned how to forge her beauty into power

      And they struggled to protect her from them
      Only to be confused
      By the magnitude of her fury in the final hour.

      And when the sand was gone and the time arrived
      In the naked dawn only a few survived
      And in attempts to understand a thing so simple and so huge
      Believed that they were meant to live after the deluge.

      Now let the music keep our spirits high
      And let the buildings keep our children dry
      Let creation reveal its secrets by and by
      By and by–
      When the light that`s lost within us reaches the sky

  24. Leftover Pods permalink
    August 20, 2010 7:25 pm

    “Paths of Least Resistance”

    My greatest joys and most profound revelations occurred each time I took a blind-faith plunge off whatever “path” I was travelling in the moment. I’ve learned my own intuition has proven to be the best, most accurate “internal GPS” and to trust it implicitly.

    I no longer regret my experiences in Scientology, although I should comment I never bankrupted my spiritual or wallet investments. I finally faced the fact that Scientology was one of those plunges. Years later I finally could see that in fact it taught me many lessons, although far from what was intended and promoted in the slick, packaged “EP”.

    A Path of Least Resistance may get you where you want to go, but rarely leads to where you need to be. If you already know where you need to be, there’s no need to travel. You’re there.

  25. Jeff permalink*
    August 21, 2010 5:10 am

    As a side note: I try to just let the comments flow without any interference, and let people have their say. But when someone drags in a soapbox and starts holding forth with their own personal agenda, on and on and on, it’s time to say “get your own blog.”

    • Suzanne permalink
      August 21, 2010 3:13 pm


      I am so thrilled to see you post this speech.

      For me and my family, “Truth is a Pathless Land” dealt the final death blow in extricating ourselves from the cult. After reading it and then studying several Krishnamurti books, my sister and I attended an outdoor retreat in Ojai where we engaged in what they refer to as “dialogues”. It was vastly different from going to any Scientology event. We discussed spiritual subjects with our peers. There were no demands for money. No authoritarianism. In fact, there was so little control that after we listened to an outdoor tape play, everyone just silently milled about for a while and then drifted away. We certainly were not used to that! What? No gauntlet of crush regging to have to fight our way through? No “8-C”? We were so used to this sort of control that the whole thing felt surreal to us. “Tell us what to do!” “Tell us what to do!”

      That weekend three years ago completely changed our lives and made us see there was yet another way to live. A life that was not based on force. Krishnamurti, or “K” is just one of the multitudinous philosophers I study. I enjoy looking at the world through diverse eyes. But I form my own conclusions now. I make my OWN observations and, yes, even discoveries. It’s like a continuously changing philosophical kaleidoscope.

      One thing that initially freaked me out about walking my own “path” was that “Truth” would no longer be handed to me on a silver platter. I was going to have to roll up my sleeves and do the work myself! And I might get dirty! Oh, but it is so much more satisfying. What tastes better? A waxy store-bought tomato? Or a fresh, sun-warmed tomato which you have planted from seed and tended? It’s just something you have to experience for yourself.

      What a bunch of beautiful comments on this post! I love you guys. XO

      By the way, here is a link to K’s entire groundbreaking speech. It’s well worth the read.

      • August 22, 2010 3:48 pm

        Suzanne, thanks for the link to Krishnamurti’s speech. It’s appreciated. Also, really liked your tomatoe analogy. That’s one I can definitely relate to!

        Note: briefly moving off topic….

        Speaking of tomatoes instantly brings to mind gardens and learning to grow, process and preserve one’s own food. I strongly encourage everyone to learn and become active in growing as much of your own food as you can. Regardless of the environment you are in you can start a garden. A quick search online will reveal a wealth of information on urban as well as rural gardening. And I’m sure that I don’t need to tell any of you why this is so important.

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 22, 2010 7:00 pm


        Well, IMO, it’s so important, primarily, not because of the socio-economic reasons, being forwarded from several fronts (many of which I am associated with), but
        because of this :

        The process and act of gardening, and what it connects one to, is one of the
        most profoundly spiritual, ongoing-experiences many of us will have in our lifetime.

        I suspect that many of the people posting on this blog already have some reality on that.


      • August 24, 2010 3:09 pm

        lunamoth, your wrote…”many of which I’m associated with”, are you by chance involved in the transition town movement? If you are I would really like to hear about it. If not, I encourage you to look for Rob Hopkins and transition towns on YT.

        You can email me at

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 25, 2010 11:26 pm


        No, but I’m listening to his YouTube video interview now, thanks to your link.

        I have been “thinking” in terms of peak oil (the documentary End of Suburbia, also on YouTube, was the wake up call on that one), and with the principles of permaculture for a few years, thanks to some good friends.

        It’s how I first became aware that there are a LOT of very good, intelligent and creative people working quite effectively to better the world, and they are not scientologists. That kind of rocked my world at the time. Seems completely right to me now, though.

  26. The Wall permalink
    August 21, 2010 6:07 pm

    I’m woven in a fantasy,
    I can’t believe the things I see
    The path that I have chosen now
    Has led me to a wall
    And with each passing day I feel a little more like something dear was lost
    It rises now before me,
    A dark and silent barrier between,
    All I am, and all that I would ever want to be
    It’s just a travesty,
    Towering, marking off the boundaries my spirit
    Would erase

    To pass beyond is what I seek
    A fear that I may be too weak
    And those of you who’ve seen it through
    to glimpse the other side,
    The promised land is waiting like a maiden that is soon to be a bride
    The moment is a masterpiece,
    The weight of indecision’s in the air
    Standing there, the symbol and the sum of all that’s me
    It’s just a travesty,
    Towering, blocking out the light; its blinding me
    I want to see

    Gold and diamonds cast a spell,
    It’s not for me I know it well
    The riches that I seek
    Are waiting on the other side
    There’s more than I can measure in the treasures of the love that I can find
    And though it’s always been with me,
    I must tear down the Wall and let it be
    All I am, and all that I was ever meant to be, in harmony
    Shining through and smiling back at all who wait to cross
    There is no loss

    • Doc "Smith" permalink
      August 22, 2010 5:39 pm

      I always love the philosophic bent in Kansas, styx, J Tull.

  27. Your humble servant permalink
    August 21, 2010 11:17 pm

    Can’t say I really agree with his thinking too much. Yes, I agree that no guru can do your thinking or evaluating for you, but if all paths must be dead ends simply because they are thought to be paths, then there would truly be no hope for anybody and no hope to get out of this mess we call the physical universe. You cannot just realize or achieve everything you need to realize or achieve all by yourself without help from anybody, or, even if you can, you are not going to take anyone else along with you. Someone who knows more than you do can always teach you.

    What is different about Scn is that it is a path that anyone can follow and still be true to his own observations, his own truths and his own ideals. At least, that is the way it can be and is supposed to be, and for some, especially OUTSIDE the official C of S right now, I think that’s the way it actually is. It is a path that can and does work. I agree though that for someone to simply say, “Because LRH said it it must be true,” is falling into the same trap as every other religion, cult and philosophy that has ever existed. It is a path that leads nowhere.

    Just to say there can be no path to truth is selling the hope of man pretty short. Sure, you cannot “organize truth” because truth is a static, but you sure as heck can organize an organization that makes truths available for people to inspect on their own determinism and shows them how they can practice truths they themselves have observed for the benefit of self and others.

    Scientology organizations may have fallen very short since LRH’s passing,and they may have inherent flaws, but in the past they have done great things. Our present view of the Church of Scientology as it presently exists is unfortunately badly soured by the fact that an anti-social madman took charge and he has increasingly barred the road to truth for everyone involved while pretending he is helping them along the way.

    • craig houchin permalink
      August 22, 2010 1:17 am

      Your humble servant,

      I gather from your comments that Scientology is your chosen spiritual path, and that LRH is your guide or teacher.

      That’s all perfectly fine, and I’m not here to debate you or challenge your belief. I would just like to present a different viewpoint.

      You said,

      “then there would truly be no hope for anybody and no hope to get out of this mess we call the physical universe.”

      You are assuming that the “physical universe” is 1) a mess and 2) that it needs to be gotten out of. This is a belief specific to Scientology, not a universal truth.

      An equally valid assumption could be that the physical universe is as much a part of us as, as our hands, head and feet are a part our bodies. And that, rather than be a mess that we need to run away from, if it is a mess at all, it is a mess perhaps exactly because we have run away from it. It’s possible.

      You said,

      “You cannot just realize or achieve everything you need to realize or achieve all by yourself without help from anybody, or, even if you can, you are not going to take anyone else along with you. Someone who knows more than you do can always teach you.”

      LRH listed a long line of philosophers upon whose shoulders he stood, and each of them, I’m sure, had a long list of thinkers and philosophers that they stood upon, and those too had their lists. So where does it end?

      If you follow your assumption to it’s conclusion, we should arrive at THE ONE single truth bearer of the universe. Who did he/she rely upon for teaching? God? It’s the chicken or egg conundrum applied to the universe and infinite wisdom.

      As for “taking anyone else along,” is that really a task that any of us is obligated to? In some states that’s called kidnapping. Just asking.

      You said,

      “Just to say there can be no path to truth is selling the hope of man pretty short.”

      What hope? Who’s hope? You are assuming that your hopes and my hopes are the same hopes. That assumption collapses us from individuals into a pile of undifferentiated sameness. That is a symptom of every religion touting “A Path.” And if there is a path, there are usually group imposed consequences for not following it. One size does not always fit all.

      You said,

      “you sure as heck can organize an organization that makes truths available for people to inspect on their own determinism and shows them how they can practice truths they themselves have observed for the benefit of self and others.”

      That is true to me. You can organize an organization. Whether doing so is beneficial to any particular individual’s pursuit of personal enlightenment or not, can only be answered by each individual.

      My point is this: Your acceptance of Scientology as a belief system informs, shades, and modifies your view of the universe. My beliefs do the same. Therefore, you and I are not necessarily looking at the same universe.

      Is the glass half-full or half-empty? Is the universe a mess, or exactly what it ought to be?

      I offer this for consideration. Consider the idea that not everybody thinks, sees, or believes the way you do, or the way I do.

      And that’s a good thing. It means that, if we open ourselves to it, we have the opportunity to teach one another. And thus does consciousness grow — but of course, that is just my belief.

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 22, 2010 7:07 pm

        Beautiful, Craig! Beautiful! Your understanding of this is quite different than mine, and that’s not how I saw it at all. But now I can! HA!

        And that, Your Humble Servant, is the whole point.


      • Tony DePhillips permalink
        August 23, 2010 2:21 am

        Nice thinking Craig..

      • sherrymk permalink
        August 23, 2010 11:44 pm

        Brilliant Craig. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with you.

        The significant problem in communicating with anyone who holds certain concepts as THE truth, or THE way, is that they fail to see that what they deem to be the truth or the way, simply because someone they’ve decided is the authority said so, just might not be fact.

        There’s always the “What if?” factor that gets missed…the belief vs scientific fact argument all over again.

    • lunamoth permalink
      August 22, 2010 1:35 am

      Your Humble Servant,

      Eight or nine months ago I would simply have agreed with you. But my views on this have evolved so much in that time. You might say I have come to understand what my own viewpoints really are, rather than the viewpoints that were “shown” to me (one can also say were asserted to me, enforced upon me, indoctrinated into me).

      When I say that I would “simply”have agreed to you, it is to distinguish my current viewpoint which is this: You are absolutely right, for yourself, right now. That’s your reality. That’s what you see and you feel when you look at the subject, based on what you have experienced and how you have evaluated your experiences, based on the other viewpoints you hold.

      BUT- I’m telling you, without the constant indoctrination, the constant pressure to maintain the group think, whether subtle or done with great duress, one of those viewpoints is bound to change. You are going to see something, hear something, that challenges your stable data, and that’s the beginning of the end for your certainty about scientology and organized, institutionalized truth. Because that’s what the institution was for – to insure the future survival of the “ology,” to keep “putting it there” in the face of conflicting data. Once you are free of the institution, once you rely solely on your own observations and your own assessments, your “truth” will be constantly changing. If that scares or unsettles you, you will find another “ology” to cling to. If you embrace it, you can be free.

    • August 22, 2010 4:11 pm

      Your humble servant, you wrote…

      “…no hope to get out of this mess we call the physical universe.”

      I couldn’t begin to account for all the times that I have thought or uttered one variation or another of this concept about being stuck in and needing/wanting to get out of this mess we, as scios, came to refer to as the mest universe. But it wasn’t until I read this particular line in your comment that it hit me! Prior to my entering into, accepting and believing scn, I cannot recall (especially as it relates to the physical universe) ever having this notion that I was trapped in anything or needed to get out or be somewhere else. That notion, for me, came from my scn indoctrination. Furthermore, another light that has come on is the realization that this notion of being stuck in or trapped in this mess we call the physical universe, is not with me anymore. I suppose that it, at some point, got vaporized! I no longer feel or believe that there is a trap or mess to get out of.

      Thanks for providing the light switch Your humble servant.

      • lunamoth permalink
        August 22, 2010 7:11 pm


        Like you, I trace that concept of “being trapped” back to my initial indoc into Sci. Without that now-discarded idea, I find I don’t feel trapped any more. You’d think, if it were true, that I would feel it. I mean, I HATE being trapped. I don’t even like elevators much. But the physical universe does not engender that response in me to any degree.

        I’m going to say something here that will make the hard-core scientologists howl: I LOVE the physical universe!! Hee hee. I find it endlessly fascinating, beautiful and challenging. I find understanding it through my own observations, through science, through art, etc., to be rewarding, satisfying and stimulating. I think the physical universe ROCKS. Ha!

      • Suzanne permalink
        August 22, 2010 9:08 pm

        Monte, Lunamoth and Craig –

        My “sediments” exactly!

        I, too, love the physical universe! Don’t feel “trapped” at all. That’s like saying the drop of water is “trapped” in the ocean. Scientologically, this is pure blasphemy! The Christian equivalent of saying you love “the Devil”.

        The PDC was the last course I did. One day, I walked out and never came back because I felt LRH had it all wrong on the physical universe and its relation to spiritual beings. I noticed the more I continued on with the course, the more paranoid I became about my environment.

        You see, if I had a goal, the physical universe was just waiting around the corner, wringing it’s dirty hands, ready to sabotage and crush me. In order to “be cause” I would have to get the physical universe under my complete control. The “force universe” needed to be tamed and channeled to fit MY needs and desires using my oh-so-awesome “theta” capabilities. My god, if this isn’t Western thinking taken to it’s absurd conclusion! It’s supremely egotistical to the point of being profane.

        What made me ultimately walk out of that courseroom was something I had read in book (which I was secretly reading) which simply stated, “if you are a friend to the physical universe, it will be a friend to you.” So, right then and there I decided to “kiss and make up” and be pals! And – dammit if suddenly my life didn’t start going better! Things began going my way, I became happier and healthier and I was no longer “suspicious” of this “whore” of a physical universe whose sole desire was to destroy me and all I loved.

        This viewpoint of conquering/loathing the physical universe might explain the Scientologist who lives in my neighborhood who drives around in a big-ass Hummer. On the license plate, it simply states:


        I guess no counter-intention is going to penetrate THAT, huh?

      • Aeolus permalink
        August 24, 2010 1:58 pm

        This idea that the physical universe is a trap must be one of those ‘thought-stoppers’ because I just accepted it until now. But the physical universe is the sixth dynamic, is it not? And we are supposed to flourish and prosper and BE on all our dynamics. Except apparently the sixth, because that one is out to get you and you need to escape from it. Conflicting data here. Perhaps we need to embrace the sixth dynamic in order to escape from it. How Zen-like would that be?

        Speaking of Zen, some Buddhist sects teach that the first dynamic is the trap, and you have to lose your ego in order to be free. I suspect Ron would have had a hard time with that one.

        Personally, I choose to embrace all of the dynamics, including the sixth. Whether it’s “the way out” or the way to flourish and prosper or a huge mistake because I really don’t know what the f*&k is going on, it’s just more appealing in every way than living as if the physical universe was your enemy.

      • Another Layer permalink
        August 25, 2010 11:30 pm

        Monte – Amen!!! I had always loved the physical universe, studied it, enjoyed it. But then after 2-3 years in Scientology, I bought into that “trapped in” and “gotta get out” mindset for who knows what reason? (Perhaps a cute guy mentioned it?) Never saw the point in making it go away … it has been way too interesting and fun. Anyway, I LOVE THE PHYS UNI. There, I said it. Hey, nobody sent me to Ethics! (hahaha) I love this blog.

    • Tony DePhillips permalink
      August 23, 2010 2:37 am

      After reading Humble servant’s and everyone elses comments I had my own realization.
      1. I like the idea of not being in a MEST trap or that there even IS a MEST trap. To think you are in one really puts you in one. And to think you are not in one unmocks the trap, ( if there is one there) to some degree.
      2. What I like about the philosophy of Scientology is, in it’s better form, asks you to look and decide for yourself about things. Auditing when done well, does this.
      3. If Scientology could be an organization that lived up to its philosophy it would be a great thing. A question I pose is : Is it possible for an organization to be set up in a way that could retain the ideal of the philosophy? I think it could be.

      The idea of using whatever works and makes sense to me is very desirable. I think one thing that helps take Scientology off the ideal is that it promotes that it will take you to OT and that has yet to be really proven. It is a good theoretical goal to have. But to assert that we have made it is premature and really a false hood from where I stand. It is still a desire that I have to increase myself as a spiritual being. I do think that as a spirit that I am eternal and I like that about religion in general. What I like about Scientology is that it really said you can create your own eternity and you don’t need a license to survive. I got that from LRH. That and a good many other things and for that I am grateful. I dont’ agree that I have to give up all my other freedoms in order to “pay it back”. I have it and have paid dearly. I consider that debt paid in full.

  28. August 23, 2010 5:08 am

    I have a bout of sciatica running down my right leg currently. I can ride a bike just fine but standing and walking are out of the question for than a couple minutes due to the pain.

    I feel trapped in the body when it has a problem like this. And that’s usually about the time my Scn “training” kicks in and tells me that bodies and the universe suck because you can be effect. And I don’t mean the enjoyable kind of effect such as enjoying a great movie. I mean the pain, effort, and frustration at not being able to fucking walk kind of effect!

    However, when my body is running just fine (the usual for me), the consideration of being trapped goes away. I’m happy to be in a body. Happy to have a first, middle and last name. Happy to have a planet to walk on, earn money on, fall in love on, etc.

    Who wants to live without art, music, beautiful women, good food, fresh air, etc?

    But the general cogs I’ve had in reading this post and its comments are that LRH implanted some pretty fearful or disgusted tones in me regarding MEST. Or…..did I implant myself by agreeing?

    Are we in a trap? Is there a better universe? Why does Swiss cheese have holes in it?


  29. Your humble servant permalink
    August 23, 2010 5:18 am

    Craig, Lunamoth, Tony, Monte, and Suzanne,

    Thank you all for your thoughtful analyses, responses, and expressions of opinion. it seems we all agree that having different viewpoints and opinions is a right we happily share. This is the way discourse should be–respectful, courteous, thoughtful, pertinent, and even affectionate. You guys are good at discourse!

    I am sorry many of you had a rough time in Scientology. I’m sure it was not meant to be that way. For those who have concluded that the subject is not for them at all, I’m glad if you are doing better in your chosen pursuits–or in no pursuits at all. As to Scientology, I really agree with Grateful’s post above quoting Ron’s lecture Differences between Scientology and Other Studies (Original title). Ron said, “I don’t care what you conclude is true. I haven’t the slightest wish about it one way or the other.”

    Tony, I also would like to see any organization in Scientology live up to the philosophy. We know that the current one doesn’t.

    As for this physical universe, yes, we can take it as we may. Personally, I’m happy to be here, but I do sort of object to the fact that I can’t leave if I want to. This, to my own mind means I am rather “stuck” in it, although I realize you don’t necessarily feel that way. It doesn’t mean I cannot enjoy it while I’m here, however!

    Lunamoth, I love your moniker, “Lunamoth.” Beautiful!

    • August 24, 2010 3:15 pm

      Your humble servant, I do not think that you could have written a more perfect reply than what you wrote here.

      Your first comment was certainly quite the catalyst! Rich!! I’m continuing to ponder over the perspectives and possibilities expressed here by yourself, lunamoth, Craig, Suzanne and Tony.

      Thank you much for being the spark that started the flame.

  30. lunamoth permalink
    August 23, 2010 6:41 am

    Jeff, Craig, Suzanne, Your Humble Servant, Monte, Idle Org, Tony

    I would like to thank you all for enriching my life tonight. I’m going to put my head on my pillow knowing that I have wonderful, smart, interesting and decent friends. It gives me hope for the future that there are people like you all out there.



    • Tony DePhillips permalink
      August 24, 2010 2:00 am

      Back atcha Lunamoth!

  31. August 23, 2010 9:30 pm

    Now the question is:
    Should people be helped to get through Scientology’s path to get to the Truth,
    or should Scientologists be helped to get through with Scientology to get to the Truth?

    Methinks, Scientologists should be helped… as needed. If they care about Truth.


  1. Tweets that mention Truth is a Pathless Land: A while ago, a friend sent me an interesting speech by Krishnamurti. I found... #Scientology --

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