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Human Rights According to Jan Eastgate

May 21, 2010

Jan Eastgate is the current head of Scientology’s Citizens’ Commission on Human Rights. You would think, given her position, that she would be sensitive to people’s human rights. That would make sense. You would think that she would be a champion of human rights, and that she would be a stickler on upholding the UN  Declaration of Human Rights.

Turns out its not so.

In fact, it seems she specializes in ignoring, covering up, and abetting human rights violations – when they have to do with the Church of Scientology.

According to a story just released by ABC News in Australia, Jan Eastgate, who was the head of CCHR ANZO at the time, covered up the repeated abuse of an 11-year-old girl at the hands of her stepfather, a Scientologist. She allegedly told both the mother and daughter to lie to police and community services about the abuse.

What about human rights, Jan?  What about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which you sanctimoniously distribute? What about Article 5 of that document, which states “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” I guess the cruel and degrading treatment of an 11-year-old girl is nothing when stacked up against the potential “out-PR” of the Church of Scientology.

What about your brags, on the CCHR website, that “Thousands of psychiatric victims or their families contact CCHR each year to report incidents of psychiatric harm such as sexual abuse…Through CCHR’s work…Legislation has been enacted to ensure that psychiatric sexual abuse and rape of patients is dealt with as a criminal offense.”

Really? Can you say “double standard”? When a psychiatrist is involved in sexual abuse, you expose it and prosecute it to the limit, but when a Scientologist does, you cover it up?

Of course, Jan Eastgate also showed up recently as part of a posse sent by David Miscavige to chase down and harass John Brousseau, a former member of Miscavige’s personal staff who fled the Int Base.  So tell us, Jan, which Article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights were you enforcing? Maybe Article 13: “Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state”? Or possibly Article 18: “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief”?

And how about David Miscavige’s beatings of staff, Jan? How about the abuse of executives at the Int Base?  How about the RPF? How about the cover-up of suicides? If your “psychs” were guilty of such things, you’d be all over it. You’d be demanding justice for these crimes. But it’s not psychs, it’s your own Church, your own glorious leader. So you turn a blind eye. You ignore it. You pretend it doesn’t exist. You cover it up.

Jan Eastgate, I spit on your hypocrisy, and your warped idea of “human rights.”

  1. May 21, 2010 5:13 am

    I wonder what Jan Eastgate did in a past life to pull this in?


    • AlexMetheny permalink
      May 21, 2010 5:49 am

      You be funny IO!!

  2. May 21, 2010 5:15 am

    “CCHR”–C0-Conspirators of Human Rape (and I’m NOT trying to be funny on this one)

  3. lunamoth permalink
    May 21, 2010 5:39 am

    Having daughters myself, I cannot even begin to understand how any adult can look at an 11-year old girl who has been raped by a family member and tell her THAT SHE PULLED IT IN.

    It is beyond stupid (got caught, didn’t you Jan?), beyond callous (see above), beyond defensible (I’d like to hear your attempt, though, Jan, as you drive another nail in the coffin of the damn “church”
    you were protecting).

    What the hell was this woman thinking? Did it not occur to her that if there was a situation on this earth that qualifies as a deal-breaker for her unquestioning obedience, this was it?

    What Jan Eastgate did to that young girl was child abuse . You know, the kind that CCHR has pushed for years in all it’s literature, its biggest button against psychiatry: Betrayal disguised as help.

    Yup, that’s the c of m, alright.

    • May 21, 2010 6:15 am

      I wonder if Jan will “dissapear” now (RPF). I promise you that she isn’t getting much sleep tonight. You might call this a “flap” of epic proportions, on the world stage.

      It could serve to destroy and discredit all the work that she and Bruce Wiseman have been doing regarding psychs for so long.

      Jan is on the major comm lines of the non-Scientology world. She can deny the validity of the story but even the pedophile, child-rapist stepdad himself ADMITTED to doing it! To the police! He even added that he felt the mom and daughter had downplayed it when giving their original statements at the time of the rape(s)!

      Tommy Davis…….”They’re liars! They are dissafected and once we removed that mother and daughter, the stats for all of Australia shot through the roof to unprecedented, highest-ever! It’s ‘pinch-me’ material. And, even if it did happen, children are just old beings in new bodies.”

      • earthmother permalink
        May 21, 2010 7:39 pm

        “And, even if it did happen, children are just old beings in new bodies.”

        This is such outrageous thinking, and anyone in their right mind would distance themselves from anyone or group that gives it as a justification.

        There have been so many stories in the news over the years of young girls, some very young, being raped, and I would look at my daughter, aged 4, or 7, and now 14, and I would think of the horror of having such a tender body violated. So, anyone who covers up such a crime is in my opinion, more guilty than the rapist. It is incomprehensible to me that a woman would tell a no doubt frightened and confused young girl to deny it, to lead her to believe she pulled it in.

        It is perhaps the most heinous crime to inflict on a child, and that would explain why child molesters in prison fear for their lives.

    • Martin Padfield permalink
      May 21, 2010 4:04 pm

      “Betrayal disguised as help”.

      The epitaph of the Church. How bitterly ironic that CCHR should use that phrase on others.

    • May 21, 2010 6:33 pm

      My mom in a way did this to me. Nothing to do with Scientology. She blamed the kid for not saying anything when they were threatened to be killed if I spoke up.

      I have never married and had a normal life. Not asking for sympathy here. I hate people who do this. It ruins many lives including my own.

      • craig houchin permalink
        May 21, 2010 7:34 pm

        Thank you for sharing your personal story. I wish you the best.

      • Its me again permalink
        May 22, 2010 5:01 pm


        “My mom in a way did this to me” was not ok.

        “A child has a great natural sense of dignity. Do not talk down to a child. Treat him with as much dignity as you can. You will find that the child has weird misconceptions about many everyday things around him. Trace these misconceptions to their source and you will usually find an adult who has not taken the trouble to give this child the right data.” Tech Vol I. The Processing of Children, page 62.

        I hope one day you will find a good C/S and auditor and handle the charge on this.

        Best to you.

  4. AlexMetheny permalink
    May 21, 2010 5:49 am

    Hi Jeff!!

    You da man!!

    • May 21, 2010 6:30 am


      Actually, YOU da man!

      I almost feel like I know you from somewhere, my bruthuh! Hmmmmm…….

      And that Lunamoth cat is pretty hip, too! 🙂

      Jeff’s site is a treasure trove of excellent writing, data and even humor. It’s a real powerhouse of truth. Thanks Jeff!!!

      Child-rape, along with subsequent cover-up……….well………there seems to be no limit to what has been done “for the greatest good” within DM’s “church”…

      I cannot understand sexually abusing a child for one’s own personal gratification. I can’t even understand the IMPULSE to want to do so, frankly. This one bothers me to no end, and I hope deeply that that young woman can regain a life that’s worth living. The older I get and the more I learn, the more grateful I am to have had decent and caring adults around me.

      “Pulled it in” Fuck you, Jan! And lay off the jelly doughnuts!!!

  5. May 21, 2010 7:59 am

    I’m actually also annoyed by this group thinking that occur in many places, not just in Scientology. Everybody should be equal in front the the law, Scientologist, Psychiatrist or anybody else.

    The important thing is that the world is improved. Groups are junior to this.

    This group thinking is not healthy but I guess the explanation is that the goals of Scientology are so important that the goals in themselves can be violated. Doesn’t really make sense though.

    Is the world improved by action A or not? If it’s not improved then don’t do it. (Like Miscavige doing a beating.)

    I’m sure all of this will be leveled out though sooner or later and people will get a real grip on how to use Scientology technology and not misuse it.

    • lunamoth permalink
      May 21, 2010 5:26 pm

      “This group thinking is not healthy but I guess the explanation is that the goals of Scientology are so important that the goals in themselves can be violated. Doesn’t really make sense though.”

      No, Hubbardianen, that is NOT the “explanation.” That is the JUSTIFICATION. The “explanation” is that people can be led or allowed or encouraged to do the vilest things, TO completely violate their own personal integrity,under certain conditions, and the c of m has mastered that art. That is the explanation.

      If the goals of scientology were in truth so important to these people they would be PRACTICING BEHAVIOR that creates the conditions they wish to bring about in the world, not contributing to the lies, pain and degradation in the world. Wake the fuck up.

      • May 21, 2010 7:36 pm


        But I happen to have met a lot of Scientologists. Most of the public ones are sensitive and nice people according to me. They want to create a better world. Some of the staff are a little bit more “over the top”. This is because of the stats… they have to be up. The idea of statistics was something that originated from a well intentioned idea of spreading Scientology to the world but that turned out to create a less human environment. In the end it was a bad idea. Hubbard was great at philosophy and tech but no so great at some management ideas. Good on paper, not so good in reality.

        The “stats up” should be removed according to me since it creates a stressed-up environment with less success.

        Most Scientologists are good people with healthy intentions AND THOSE ARE EASIER TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF, just like Miscavige has done.

        I still believe in a reasonable Scientology where most of the bad PLs are removed. Look at the Freezone. People over there seem to be happy and doing just fine, getting audited and paying healthy prices, also realizing that parts of Scientology is one truth among many others and letting it EXPAND BY ITSELF without too much force. That’s something to strive for. Miscavige does the wrong thing by implying that Scientology is the only truth.

  6. Rebecca-Tribecca permalink
    May 21, 2010 8:13 am

    You have often used the word “SPIN” re what the Church puts out.
    See this site
    re Public Service Announcements of Human Rights.
    It does seem INCREDULOUS given the data of INT base, for example Musical Chairs at
    INT BASE, enforced abortions, sleep deprivation SP Hall and lock downs, David Miscavige beatings and so on.

    Now we find out that FREEWINDS is no better. ( Marty’s and other blogs.)
    I believe FREEWINDS has gotten far worse in the last 5 years.
    Jan Eastgate loses all credibility on this.

    I just wonder how much the general populace ~ the rank and file of Scientology can take this. EVERY single day you read either some NEW horror story or some COVER UP of magnitude. Instructing those still in to “not read the entheta” just doesn’t cut it anymore.

  7. May 21, 2010 12:24 pm

    “Human rights” in Scientology? Mike Rinder’s “human rights” apparently included getting the living crap beat out of him on a regular basis, and Amy Scobee’s included getting raped and having the crime covered up by officials.

    In George Orwell’s 1984, the government ministries were given names exactly opposite of what their real purpose was. So the Ministry of Truth was in fact a purveyor of lies, and the Ministry of Love was the agency responsible for torturing people. Perhaps Scientology’s Citizens’ Commission on Human Rights may have been similarly established.

  8. Fidelio permalink
    May 21, 2010 12:25 pm

    Jeff, your article is breathtaking!
    And I certainly join you to spit on Jan’s hypocrisy and warped idea of “human rights”.
    Thank you another time for your shot into the bullseye.

  9. mina bobi permalink
    May 21, 2010 2:05 pm

    She has to go to jail

  10. Suzanne permalink
    May 21, 2010 2:51 pm

    Most of you have probably read Kendra Wiseman’s story of when she worked at CCHR. Just in case you haven’t, this link takes you to page 3 of her full story.

    Thanks, Jeff, for another great, eye-opening post.

    • Synthia permalink
      May 21, 2010 6:18 pm

      Thank you Suzanne. Wow! I didn’t know that. Everyday the plot thickens. Ya just can’t make this stuff up. What a beautiful write up from her.

  11. Synthia permalink
    May 21, 2010 4:13 pm

    You know, I have always had deep respect for Jan Eastgate. Even when I wasn’t able to get people (non-Scientologists) to look at Scientology, I was always able to get agreement on CCHR.

    Even after I saw this story come out, I still had empathy for Jan. I was thinking that maybe she really did fear that Carmen would be taken away from her mom, as the “authorities” do not always have the best intentions. I thought possibly she worked to keep this girl with her mom and then went about making sure that this pedophile criminal was gotten away from this girl.

    Your article has brought me to my senses, yet again. If one needed an images for the dictionary, to convey the concept of the word hypocrisy, no better images would suffice than that of the C of S and all it’s syncophants. The hypocrisy at every turn is becoming so predictable, laughable and yet so sad. The church is a shallow caricature where its only substance is an agreed upon PR which is as thin and transparent as gossamer to those outside and as opaque as steel to those still in creating the lie.

    In the real world, the accused come out and tell their side of the story with sincerity. This then gets the public really looking, making commentary, etc. It gets the public involved and then they decide. No, the C of S is “above” all the fray. This is why they are despised. They are arrogant. Nobody likes arrogant people. They grant no beingness to the world at large. What a mistake.

    Their silence will take them out. Did LRH say, “Fill the vacuum of omitted data with factual data?”

    Well……we’re waiting.

  12. Tyler permalink
    May 21, 2010 5:04 pm

    I volunteered briefly at CCHR in Clearwater. What a fiasco! The woman who had been running it for a few years had stopped paying taxes and bills. Very messy. But nothing to do with Jan or human rights abuses, butsoanyway — I thought it was a serious out-point.

  13. Mat Pesch permalink
    May 21, 2010 5:09 pm

    The Sea Org is truely a degraded rat nest behind a fancy facade.

    • Fidelio permalink
      May 22, 2010 12:40 pm

      I would like to see it disbanded and dismantled for good. I don’t see any hook where reform could set in.

  14. May 21, 2010 8:49 pm


    Sort of like the 40 foot high styrofoam columns behind DM…

    The Wizard of Oz is such an apt analogy for it. Only the wizard is in FRONT of the curtain.

    • John & Doe permalink
      May 22, 2010 2:55 am

      Wizard of Oz. When Tom Cruise got that big ass medal a few years ago, right then and there, it reminded me of the hokey medal the cowardly lion got…

  15. May 21, 2010 10:48 pm

    Dear posters and readers!
    Isn’t this whole scene of what has been going on in and with scientology ugly enough????
    I had been devoted to Scientology up until January this year (from 1994).
    Up until February I just didn’t want to look (even closed my eyes and ears not to hear “confidential” stuff that was played on Russian TV main channel in 2005).

    This story of Jan Eastgate is of the ugly stuff. But this is common within scientology.
    Jan Eastgate will have great many explanations as to how and why she acted this way.
    The Church will go all-out behind her “truth”s.
    NO scientologist will question her or circumstances. Her explanation (*PR*) will *always* look as *for the greatest good*.

    My call is for the people to come out of the shadow, and not be “Idle Org”, “Lunamoth”, “Mickey”, “Just Me”, “John Doe”, “Hubbardanien”..
    ENOUGH! There is nothing that should keep you in hiding. The more “SPs” are out here the less credibility to the Church.
    Come out! Say your names.
    It will help those who know you see the world as it is.

    We have to be us. We are not “secret service” fighting for our “suppressive ends” to ruin “the greatest thing in the world there is – scientology”. We are after truth.
    And – being open we make more TA than being “Anonymous” disintegrated beings who post here and there, and protest.

    Don’t be afraid! Church is desperate. Today I received a call from Flag – to buy some “congresses”. It means the Church is DYING for money. (I’m in Russia, and I have never received phone calls from Flag before. It’s a sign. DM is desperate. The Church is dying for money).

    Scientology is barely breathing.
    Let’s get open here!
    We are more than them.

    • craig houchin permalink
      May 22, 2010 10:35 pm


      I hear you and I hear your frustration. You’ve come out. I’ve come out. And many others have come out. But I didn’t come out until I was ready. You really have to respect the process here. Everybody, runs the process of leaving Scientology and/or the Church in their own time.

      Coming out or not is not a group decision. It’s a personal step resulting from application of personal ethics. The last step of a PTS person’s handling of a suppressive influence in their life (can you say “C of M”) is to publicly announce one’s disconnection. It’s the final throwing off of the last shackles of suppression and stepping into the light. It is all for personal gain. If the group wins as well, then great. But the purpose is to handle PERSONAL SUPPRESSION.

      All of the power and relief that comes to a person from such an act comes only from that act being fully self-determined. It can’t be forced — or it’s just more suppression.

      The whole problem with disconnection is that it has been taken out of the personal realm and made an instrument of coercive in-justice. The Church plays that game. I won’t, and I will never force anyone to publicly disconnect from the Church. I will encourage them once they are already moving in that direction but I will never use force, guilt or should.

      • AlexMetheny permalink
        May 23, 2010 6:24 am

        Very well said Craig!!

        Someone earlier commented on the CofM being despised for being arrogant and not explaining thier position on these issues. I heartliy agree with that. The church has lost all ARC with the rest of the world and it is now losing it within as well. It is because the top leaders don’t get the fact that a true group is in communication and is truthfull. To me, the Catholic church is doing a better job of damage control than the Cof M and they were dealing with pedophiles within thier group.

      • May 23, 2010 1:11 pm

        I can’t help but agree with your statement.
        Only, I didn’t call for public announcement of disconnection. In fact, I didn’t do public disconnection. I just started to exercise my right to speak my mind. And I said my name. If someone thinks that I’m anti-scientology (as some of my friends stated, or as some Boyd H queried on Marty’s blog: ), then it’s their reality. If someone thinks other way around, it’s their reality.
        To me, if I had fully disconnected, I’d never mention word “scientology” not only to others but to myself… So, I’m still connected, to tell you the truth. And might still stay connected for another few years. Just to wrap up with some odds and ends. And see if I can help some people to get out and speak their minds, too.
        It will be great company where we can not only speak about negative things (“what church has done to me and how it ruined lives of others”) but have some positive community of people who have constructive ideas about life and interact with positiveness about past and current events…. I’m really looking forward to it when the church goes down (I believe it will happen soon). By that time we’d better know each other by real names.

        My call was not for revenge and public disconnection. It’s rather for OPEN communication between REAL people who CAN think for themselves (that’s how I see most in this particular blog).
        Otherwise, church can easily consider and announce “people with fake names” = “Anonymous” = “Hate Group”.
        In fact, I said my name because I’m not a member of Hate group. Who am I then? –
        I stated openly about myself here:

        I’m Vadim Dolgov, live in Moscow and doing fine in my life without scientology.
        Any other labels are just labels. And I don’t care about them.

        I appeal to others to look deeply inside and see the simplicity of “being me” – no matter what this dying structure thinks of me and calls me to its other parishioners.

        Something like that…

      • Heather G permalink
        May 24, 2010 12:48 am

        All of the power and relief that comes to a person from such an act comes only from that act being fully self-determined. It can’t be forced — or it’s just more suppression.

        Or wasn’t it Gandhi who said Be the Change you want to see in the world? If you stand for freedom, then let people decide freely. Encourage, but don’t coerce.

      • May 24, 2010 9:42 am

        Heather G,
        Wow! I din’t have a clue that my words “coerced” to come out.
        How can I possibly coerce someone by stating what I think on the blog thread? – Or may be I AM doing that? Interesting. Never thought my words come across like that.
        But – Ok! I won’t press the point.
        And – again – I agree with Craig.

      • Heather G permalink
        May 26, 2010 7:29 pm

        Vad, “coerce” wasn’t directed at your comment. 🙂

    • Its me again permalink
      May 23, 2010 4:07 am

      No one ever has told me what I should or shouldn’t do, not even in Scientology. I am a manager type and I know how to handle with ARC, when needed, and I do believe in acceptable truths and I have used them…yes my neck is precious, always has been.

      I am not your Joe blow who walked into Scientology trying to handle some incident or problem this lifetime. Last two life times have been pretty good. After I had my second child I started recalling past lives. I was excited and tried to tell others, of course, they thought I was crazy. When I went to see “The Empire Strikes Back” I started pinching my mother sitting next to me and said “something like this has happened before on other planets”. So I started searching. Nothing answered my questions. Oh, my the way, no I am not a last life timer, I never heard of Dianetics or Scientology before.

      A few years later, I walked into a Church one day after getting a Code of Honor promo and when the reg ask me what I wanted to handle, I said…I want to know why I am here, how I got here and how to get out. She said with no comm lag, you have come to the right place. I felt a great relief.

      I wanted no auditing, only training. About 6 months after I started on course I had a feeling that I had been in a group like Scientology a long time ago, but with that thought came great grief, I wrote it up to the C/S…..We lost!

      When I started OT V, I knew that is what I walked in the door to do years before. The whole Bridge now made perfect sense. I have had great perceptions all my life, but could never quite make some things out, until OT V.

      Now I realize this may be totally unreal to some of you on this site, but what I know is what I know, no one can tell me different. I didn’t need Scientology to know that I lived many times before and that something was very wrong here on planet earth. I looked for years to find out answers before Scientology.

      Yes, I have seen the outpoints with management. Yes, I believe what happened to those of you at the Base. Yes, I know that things have been done for income only. Yes, I see that the tech has been perverted and used to cave people in instead of helping the most important people on the planet…. SO members. I can tell who on these sites have bypassed charge, who really wants to take the Church back and who is just plain critical.

      There is no other way out…I have looked. The Tech works if applied correctly. So I stop here on the Bridge until this thing with DM and others are handled. Time is a consideration. We all will drop our body and come back, this I am certain of. Some of us won’t even remember what happened with Scientology this lifetime and just start again.

      This is not a coming out party so everyone feels good. What is happening is very serious. Our road out is being blocked by the insane, but I see no way out here either. I am here to give my opinions and to listen to yours. I will keep looking on these sites and hopefully someone will come up with a great idea on how to get the psychosis out of the Church. Or maybe they will just do themselves in. You may want to stay in the condition you are in here on this planet, but I don’t and I hope that one day you will change your mind.

      I don’t care who you are…why do you care who I am? Does it really matter? This is a chat site, there is no action here to be involved with.

      By the way Jeff…thanks for keeping the site open to all.

      • AlexMetheny permalink
        May 23, 2010 6:32 am

        Hi It’s me again,

        I hear you. I made it onto Solo Nots and I believe that if we are going to rise to higher awareness through the tech then we have to get in ethics first.

        Getting the SP off post is the first step and then getting people that are rational and applying sensible policies with ARC is the next step. If you believe in considerations take rank over MEST then you will know that all the mechanics don’t need to be worked out at once. Get rid of the SP is the first step and then lots of people will destim and de-PTS and you will get improvement.

        Keep the faith,

  16. Marta permalink
    May 22, 2010 12:18 am

    This organization just is NOT a viable representation of its stated values. The practices are in direct opposition to its stated tenets. The “cure” has become the disease in just a few decades – fastest growing religion, my donkey. Very likely we’re going to see it surpass all records for length of time of an “world wide” organization going full curve from inception to destruction.

    The end is inherent in the means, Jan. Cause and effect, remember? Didn’t you study your APPLIED philosophy? Your own means will get you in the end!

    • May 22, 2010 7:56 am

      Marta, you are awesome!
      You can always put things that some (like I) rant about in a more concise form.
      You are a Sage!

  17. rory medford permalink
    May 22, 2010 12:37 am

    despicable just plain old despicable!!! The church will lie at any and all cost, they are the KINGS & QUEENS of double talk, twisting the truth and whatever other word you can use to call them liars. Oh yeah, ACCEPTABLE TRUTH forgot about that one

    In the end TRUTH REVEALED will be REVEALED and guess what. ALL of the execs will be put into the RPF and DM will go where he belongs.. TO H_ _ L!!!

  18. John & Doe permalink
    May 22, 2010 3:30 am

    Carmen, I am so sorry this happened to you, and I applaud your courage in coming forward to expose this gross injustice.

    This is a tough one for the church or Jan to get out of, given that the stepfather confessed and was found guilty. So, if as Jan claims, she only went to the meeting with Child Protective Services to help ensure that there was no forced psychiatric treatment given, then WHY didn’t she follow up on getting criminal charges filed, JUST LIKE she certainly would have done had the stepfather been a psych, as Jeff points out.

    I’ve heard this expression a lot lately: “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire”. Jan, the conflagration that is the church’s PR will not be reduced by more LIES!

  19. Synthia permalink
    May 22, 2010 6:13 am

    Ya know, I’ve been thinking about what I wrote all night since I left my post and it just isn’t sitting right with me and what I am about to say may be unpopular.

    I think we need to guard against using any and all bad press and circumstances as an expedient to the cause without using some differentiation. Jan Eastgate, despite this horrific poor judgement, has done a lot of good and has helped a lot of people. She isn’t David Miscavige.

    Yes, she is under the spell and she did a bad thing but let’s not stone her. I might change my mind if I get more of the details but I need more of the story. Did the molestation stop at the point regardless of that fact that he didn’t get prosecuted or go to jail? Jan was not the molester either.

    I am not excusing her behavior but her grave error must also be viewed among all the good she has done. Though I am jaded now and very mad and really rather disappointed not only in DM but LRH as well, LRH did say some smart things and this is one of them:

    “This, then, is the primary breakdown of any justice system–that it acts on false reports, disciplines before substantiation and fails to confront an accused with the report and his accuser before any discipline is assigned, or which does not weigh the value of a person in general against the alleged crime even when proven.”

    * or which does not weigh the value of a person in general against the alleged crime even when proven.” is the portion I really was wanting to draw attention to.

    I believe that we lose this battle if we are not fair and don’t differentiate though I concede we all have every reason to be mad.

    • May 22, 2010 8:08 am

      There are PHASES that people go through trying to disconnect from scientology.
      Within each phase there are good reasons (for that phase) to keep untouched what’s been valuable to you in scinetology.
      It’s hard to just leave scientology in one leap and say that “it’s all bullshit I don’t ever want to hear about”.
      It comes off layer by layer. The more a person was indoctrinated the harder he has to work to UNindoctrinate himself (i.e., REeducate, UNlearn, get a move on).
      That’s what I’ve been observing – within myself, and others too.

      • lunamoth permalink
        May 22, 2010 5:23 pm

        Boy, VaD, that’s well said.

        It’s a bit like coming out of a dark room into the sunlight – you are surrounded by light and things are “visible” to you there, but you cannot see well for a while, until your eyes adjust. Then of course, you can see more than ever. But it takes as long as it takes for the light to stop hurting your eyes.

    • Its me again permalink
      May 22, 2010 6:34 pm

      You are correct. We haven’t heard her side of the story. If she did this to protect the child from being taken away and get the step-father away from the child..she may of MISTAKENLY(PTSness) thought this was the greatest good, but it was a bad move on her part. Correct communication and facts to the police would not of put the child in danger of being taken away. I really don’t know all the facts, but this step-father broke the law and damaged a child..HE IS A CRIMINAL. We have laws!

      Look at paragraphs 4,5,6 ,8 & 9 below. Maybe it fits, maybe not.

      “Man is basically good.

      When his level of awareness rises, he begins to be able to predict and see the consequences to himself or others of evil actions.

      The more he is freed and the higher his intelligence and ability rise, the more “moral” he becomes.

      Only when he is beaten down below awareness as a chronic condition does man commit evil actions.

      It is not for nothing that soldiers have to be brutalized and stuck in the present by threat and duress to make them commit harmful actions.

      When a person’s awareness is improved, he is also able to predict and can foresee consequences on the eight dynamics.

      Criminal governments and brutalizing societies are poor things to have around; they are not “clever” enough to forecast their own demise. They engage in cold or hot wars instead of working out their problems. They buy Pavlov and dog technology to crush “bad traits” rather than cure or heal anyone. They work to decrease all liberty or abolish constitutional safeguards.

      True sanity is that condition wherein one is sufficiently intelligent to solve his problems without physical violence or destroying other beings and yet survive happily and prosperously.

      The road from insanity to sanity is a road of recognition of the world around one, the future and consequences of one’s own actions.” Vol VIII, Prediction and Consequences page 436

    • Heather G permalink
      May 24, 2010 12:56 am

      Carmen, at age 11, was told she was at fault for being molested. Then she was made to feel wrong for speaking about it. Then she was coached to lie to authorities – denying all that she knew to be true.

      Robert, an intern at the CoS, was kept in his position.

      Carmen was taught lessons that no child should ever learn, and she was taught them by the champion of human rights, who went on to lead the CCHR Internationally.

      I’m not calling Jan Eastgate evil. I don’t suggest you write her off as a human being. But she’s a hypocrit and a criminal and she needs to go to jail.

      • Heather G permalink
        May 24, 2010 1:03 am

        Synthia, I’ve read your subsequent posts about this and I appreciate your desire not to fall into black and white, simplistic thinking. I see that you weren’t intending to water down the significance of the alleged offence. ❤

      • Synthia permalink
        May 24, 2010 7:13 am


        I really appreciate that understanding. That is exactly right. I’m glad you really got what I meant. Sometimes the written language, along with the fact that we haven’t all met each other, can be a limitation. Thank you for letting me know. ❤ back at ya

  20. May 22, 2010 8:21 am


    I respect your right to communicate, although I want to make a comment or two regarding it.

    The fact that the rapist admitted to it, and even added that the mom and daughter must’ve downplayed it, is very damning against Jan.

    If Jan did in fact aid and abet a child rapist, an overt of magnitude, then one might ask, to what degree did that affected her ability to take down Psychiatry from that point forward within CCHR.

    From the TV commercials I see for new psych drugs every day, I’d say that CCHR has utterly failed. Shortly before I left the church last year, Heber’s own son was in my city, stating that the psychs are winning abundantly. This, of course, was immediately followed by fund-raising to “solve the problem” by buying an Idle Org. A total bypass of the utterly innefective CCHR, lead by one Jan Eastgate.

    If Jan has had access to the internet but hasn’t been willing to at least take a look, and has been involved in terrorizing people trying to leave the church, such as JB’s recent escape, then she is aiding and abetting David Miscavige. In fact, she is aiding and abetting terror, harrassment, criminality, child rape and altered tech. And has been for decades.

    Just my personal view.

    With respect,

  21. lunamoth permalink
    May 22, 2010 8:41 am


    You raise a very good point. Jan Eastgate should not be found guilty without a thorough evaluation of her actions and she does deserve to have those weighed against the good she has done.

    HOWEVER. If we are going to be really fair, and I mean to all sides, we would also have to thoroughly investigate other cycles she has handle, including all that “good” she had done, those actions that, while “in”, we judged to be good but which now, from a different and less indoctrinated viewpoint, might not look so noble.

    I don’t have any reason to believe that this particular cycle with the 11 year old molestation victim and her mother is fundamentally any different from any other cycle she handled in her years working for CCHR and the church. So she doesn’t get a “pass” based on prior good works. Rather, I think this new bit of information about how Jan has operated in the past is a good indication that Jan’s past deeds now bear investigation.

    • Synthia permalink
      May 22, 2010 5:45 pm

      Idle Org, VaD, Lunamoth,

      Firstly, thanks for letting me speak my mind and I am very glad to get this feedback.


      Yes, I guess it is hard to get to the point of “It’s all bullshit” and I actually do think I am approaching that reality faster than most. I have only been officially out of the church for about a month and have only been off staff for 6 months. I am using my own name, I have lost all my friends. I guess I thought Jan Eastgate (though misguided) was really dedicating her life to help others. It’s not really my belief in Scientology that I have a hard time letting go of but my belief in the goodness of others within the organization. It is difficult to confront the amount of evil being perpetrated in the name of good.


      You make great points. I mainly agree with the fact that Jan has had ample opportunity to look on the Internet and do her research and I have now, again, been brought back to my senses as it truly is criminal to continue to extol the virtues of this criminal organization. I stand corrected. I do see that the psychs are winning but I do believe it would be worse if CCHR were not there and I know A LOT of people who have been helped by CCHR. Again, though, if you are going to be thr President of an organization that is all about human rights and be a public figure than you better know everything that is going on in your own organization in that regrad and then dot every “i” and cross every “t” as you should expect to be put under scrutiny and should be above reproach.


      Indeed. In fact, now that I really think about it, any actions done in this rganization based on lies, should be examined as one would then always be acting out of valence and in a numbed rather hypnotized state.

      You are all right and initially, of course, I had the same outrage and still do but something didn’t feel right and I had to at least put that out there. My concerns have been thoroughly addressed and I thank you all.

      I always want just truth and that would include on this side. I believe I needed just a bit more discourse to untangle from years of staff veneration for these folks.

      Love, Synthia

      • lunamoth permalink
        May 22, 2010 9:28 pm


        The points you raised are valid, and I hope you don’t take anything I’ve said as encouragement to abandon your belief in the basic goodness of Jan Eastgate or anyone else. That belief is so fundamental to a being, and is the source of one’s humanity and compassion. Besides, no one of us on this blog has not done things for which we could be chastised or worse – let’s not kid ourselves.

        This incident described in Jeff’s post is a metaphor for what is wrong inside the c of m in general: an insidious situation that twists good beings, with good intentions toward their fellow man, into beings who will do harm in the name of doing good.

      • Synthia permalink
        May 22, 2010 10:17 pm


        I still believe in the basic goodness of her and will not abandon that and I am sure that you do too.

        I simply wanted to guard against a black and white thinking. For example, I have seen people who leave the church then abandon and denounce everything the church was doing. Like, saying that psychiatry should never have been attacked by Scn and that they really are the professionals (with their degrees and all) and we were just the charlatans that attacked the true mental health pros. I can’t agree with this either. I have seen psychiatry do terrific harm and there are a good 70 non-Scn groups on the Internet that oppose psychiatry. There is something there to be attacked and yet I will find some ex-scn do a complete reversal on that because they are now anti-scn and so are the psychs so the psychs must be good. Are you tracking with me?

        Thank you for your post. Basically, I already felt the way that you all voiced or I wouldn’t have made my first post about how outraged I was but as the day wore on, a bit of conscience gnawed at me somewhat and I felt the need to post that other thought. In the end, I want to make sure that we, as a group, are above the fray and that we never fall into the juvenile (and I am not saying that we did AT ALL) tactics of the C of S robots.

        With Respect to You,


      • lunamoth permalink
        May 23, 2010 5:04 am

        I think you’re right that we don’t want to be guilty of that. Thanks for voicing it.

    • May 23, 2010 1:58 pm

      You are fast (at getting to the core of the scientological onion)!
      I’m impressed.
      Please, don’t take my “It’s all bullshit” as yours and/or others – here, on ESMB, OCMB or WWP…
      Your truth is YOURS! That’s what you are to live by.
      Somehow *your* truth was substituted by *THE ONLY TRUTH* as LRH said (in his “sacred scriptures” – which are 50% true and 50% false, in my opinion). IT happened to EVERY SINGLE ONE of scientologists.
      So here we are, cranking our brains “how the hell did that happen to me”…

      Synthia, you are definitely on the right path and progressing quite rapidly. It takes some heavy confront of your own self having been involved in it as well as some seeds that *were* there in your soul when you were in and believing that everything you were doing that was supposed to be for the greatest good of all wasn’t so (from your personal viewpoint).

      I like to have you as a friend! 😉

  22. Its me again permalink
    May 22, 2010 3:22 pm

    Please will someone let me know if the step father is in jail? If not, this needs to go to be written up to all news outlets by everyone who knows of this.

    When someone tells you ” you pulled it in”….were the hell does that come from? Can someone give me the LRH reference on where this tech came from… saying this to a person when something bad has happened to the Being? I am a Class V, Level E SHSBC. I never have some across this anywhere.

    How the hell can anyone know what a person did in another life time other than the person. Is this CSing some one case by a person who doesn’t know shit about the tech and is just plain CRAZY? Is this justifying for a Being on what happened to him/her to cave the Being in? Is this telling a person what to think about his case, shaking the person’s stable data without giving the person further stable data with which the person can agree or in which he can believe?…You know EVALUATION! What kind of “copying” is going on with management…one person says something and others following thinking this is ok? This is insanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Who ever started this “You pulled it in” is a suppressive person ..”He goofs up or vilifies any effort to help anybody and particularly knifes with violence anything calculated to make human beings more powerful or intelligent. A suppressive automatically and immediately will curve any betterment activity into something evil or bad. (SH Spec 73. 6608C02)

    No real Scientologist would ever say this to a person….these people are anti-Scientology…this is a well calculated intention to destroy the tech by perverting it into something evil and then telling them to LISTEN, DON’T LOOK.

    • May 22, 2010 5:29 pm

      “Who ever started this “You pulled it in” is a suppressive person”
      I might be wrong but dare say that it was Hubbard himself started it. Its within the very scientology’s basics, scientology’s “ethics tech”, namely “Overt-Motivator Sequence”. Also, Cause and Effect concepts.
      So, it’s straight application of LRH’s writing. BTW, LRH himself never failed to use it on others (lurk more about LRH himself).

      Historically, it’s similar to karma in buddhism. Yet, I haven’t heard that any buddhist told someone that he “pulled it in” (“it” being “motivator of magnitude”).

      • Its me again permalink
        May 22, 2010 6:59 pm

        There is no LRH reference that tells any person to tell another person “You pulled it in” If you have one, please give me the reference.

        Why bother with auditing. Just say to the person when he is caved-in..”I like to indicate you pulled that in!”….Yeah, that will handle their By Passed Charge!

        OVERT-MOTIVATOR SEQUENCE 1. if a fellow does an overt, he will then believe he’s got to have a motivator or that he has had a motivator. (AHMC 2, 6012C81) 2. the sequence wherein someone who has committed an overt has to claim the existence of motivators. The motivators are then likely to be used to justify committing further overt acts. (PXL Gloss). Where does it say “you pulled it in”?

        Cause and Effect Concepts? What reference are you talking about?

        Someone started something here that is very, very evil. Someone should pull the string on this and see where it came from. NO WHERE is it written you evaluate or invalidate a persons case and tell a person “you pulled it in”. Someone started perverting the tech and giving others MU’s to do cases in!

      • Jeff permalink*
        May 22, 2010 8:51 pm

        It’s me, you bring up an interesting point – if LRH never used the phrase “you pulled it in,” then where did it start? I can tell you that it was a common phrase when I first got into Scientology in 1967, and was one that was commonly heard amongst Scientologists throughout the 35 years that I was a Scientologist. It was used on the Apollo, at Saint Hill, at the Flag Land Base, at the Int Base. So who started it? Might make an interesting investigation. It was certainly in common use since at least the late 1960s to my knowledge.

      • Synthia permalink
        May 22, 2010 8:56 pm

        Well, one thing we know is that LRH never wrote anything to correct the statement and it’s misuse.

      • lunamoth permalink
        May 22, 2010 10:02 pm

        Synthia, I had the same thought.

  23. Jeff permalink*
    May 22, 2010 5:42 pm

    Synthia, you have a good point, and it was not my intention to invalidate any good that Jan may have done. I am sure that like most Scientologists, she is well-intentioned and dedicated and means well. The point is, she has a blind spot. It all goes back to our discussion of utilitarian ethics. There are lines one cannot cross. The ends do not justify the means. Covering up the abuse of an 11-year-old is just wrong. Stalking and harassing an ex-Int Base staff member is wrong. Ignoring abuse within Scientology is wrong. Particularly if one has the position of a champion of human rights. To repeat my favorite Ghandi quote, “you must be the change you wish to see in the world.” If Jan wants to be a champion of human rights – for real, not as a C of S PR caper – then she can’t hold “psychs” to one standard and her own church to another. But of course if she were to object to human rights violations in the C of S she would be declared.

    • Synthia permalink
      May 22, 2010 5:55 pm


      No doubt. I suppose my reaction (to my own initial post) was rather visceral. The raw emotion behind the last 25 years of devotion to this cause and the adoration and admiration I have had for those who were willing to take, what I saw to be, gargantuan amounts of responsibility is hard to let go of and I also, somehow, felt like I was falling into a possible blind critical attitude on this side of the aisle too.

      Like I said on my last post, all I want is truth. I agree with you utterly.

    • Rebecca-Tribecca permalink
      May 22, 2010 10:52 pm

      In my journeys and travels up the Bridge to OT 8, “You pulled it in” was endemic in every phase of every Church including Freewinds and FSO.

      It was used by D of Ps, MAAs, Qual Consultants, Course Supervisors, you name it.

      There is a reference in the PTS /SP pack about a PTS being a “magnet for trouble” i.e. magnetically drawing or pulling ” it ” in.

  24. Just Me permalink
    May 22, 2010 9:58 pm

    I’d like to address a thesis put forth on these blogs and boards, worded in various ways: Every person who becomes disaffected with Scientology, the Church of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, etc. follows a path that logically leads to a single, valid cognition, i.e., “Scientology and everything about it is bullshit!”

    This thesis has some familiar corollaries: If you haven’t had the “It’s all bullshit!” cog yet, then you (a) haven’t been out long enough, (b) aren’t being honest with yourself, (c) aren’t reading the right blogs and boards, (d) are reading the wrong blogs and boards, (e) don’t know the truth about LRH, (f) enjoy being brainwashed, (g) aren’t smart enough to figure it out, (h), (i), (j) … (z) are a stupid, fucking loser.

    Although this form of persuasion may work for some, it doesn’t work for me on so many levels, e.g.:

    1. Open wide – here’s your cognition.
    2. I asked you a question. Therefore, you must answer it.
    3. If guano, then guacamole and Guatemala.
    4. If no caca, then no calculus and no caterpillars.
    5. Despite my imperfections, everybody else better be perfect.
    6. Truth is 100% true in all situations and forever.
    7. I get to grade, judge, and label others on the basis of whatever I believe.
    8. I get to judge all a group’s members by the behavior of some individuals in that group.
    9. Everyone must now declare, publicly, what they believe and never waver from that.
    10. My new group is the master race.

    It’s possible no one has never said this before, so I will: Revolution carries forward the seeds of its own fascism.

    Or as Stephen Stills wrote:
    … Must have been a thousand people standing in the street
    Singing songs and carrying signs
    Mostly say “hurray for our side” ….

    With empathy for all who post, comment and lurk here at Jeff’s blog – and at Marty’s and Steve’s and David’s and others’ and at ESMB,

    Just Me

    • Jeff permalink*
      May 23, 2010 12:04 am

      Just Me, don’t know who has been saying these things, but not me. I have said over and over and over again until I’m blue in the face that everyone has their own path. Some will remain full-on Scientologists outside the Church, some will reject parts of the subject and embrace others, and some will reject the subject entirely. That’s an individual choice. I have many friends who are still Scientologists (and still friends) as well as friends who are firmly ex-Scientologists. And everything in between.

      I try to provide a forum here where anyone can express their opinion. And that’s just what it is, opinion. And others can counter that opinion, or express their opinion. It’s even in the Church’s own Creed: “That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.”

      I think what you are talking about here is someone’s opinion. It’s not anything I agree with or that, I think, most posters here agree with.

      Don’t make the assumption that because someone expresses an opinion different from your own, that they are “attacking” you.

      And don’t assume that if I approve a post, that I “agree” with it. I let almost anything through as long as it’s not abusive. I don’t believe in censoring out posts I don’t agree with. I’m not trying to create some sort of echo-chamber where everyone thinks the same. If you prefer that kind of an environment, there are plenty of blogs that do that.

      I try to make this a place where people can openly speak their thoughts, with no “sacred cows” that we must not discuss. You are more than welcome to contribute.

      • Just Me permalink
        May 23, 2010 12:22 am


        I mean this next bit seriously:


        No way, no how, never, can’t imagine — did I expect my comment would be interpreted as an attack on you or anything you’ve ever said.

        And now I’m going to go back and read again what I wrote and try to understand WTF just happened.

        Just Me

    • May 23, 2010 7:36 am

      Just Me,
      I’ll take your words as being addressed to me.
      To come to the point that “everything in scientology is just plain bullshit” is not the purpose.
      The purpose is to see the Truth… in order to live with the truth.

      Here’s a link to a subthread on Marty’s blog where we discussed the subject of truth:

      I want to help people and plant the seeds in this journey towards their PERSONAL truth as I can do that.
      NOT to see *my* truth, and live with it, and not to see someone’s else’s as their own. But to see OWN PERSONAL truth and live with IT.
      Eveyone has his own truth (once we are untangled from LRH’s mindf&%k we’d allowed ourselves being exposed to for so long).

      Why do I want that? – Because during my years in scientology I couldn’t get through to a person’s own truth in conversation as their minds were cluttered up with LRH’s ideas which were “THE ONLY TRUTH”. To admit, I displayed the same – in front of scientologists as well as in front of “wogs”. It was too complicated to explain. It was easier to say “you just don’t understand! (silly you!)” “And *I* KNOW! (while you are blind!)”
      And because, I see now that it is so much easier to live when you are open and can accept different viewpoints. I can deal with people who has another truth which I don’t necessary agree with (And believe me, I have such experiences dealing with various kinds of students daily).

      BTW, to me not all of scientology is BS. There are some useful parts to it. But the most important for me is the fact that there are very good people sticking around scientology. And I tend to believe that THEY need to be directed towards their own truth (that is AWAY from filtering everything through LRH’s “Truth” and INTO true See for yourself and Think for yourself mode).

      Hope no further offence taken for somewhat rough statements in my previous posts, rough on other people’s reality.
      BTW, Let’s separate concepts of Truth and Reality here, shall we?

  25. Its me again permalink
    May 22, 2010 10:42 pm

    Jeff and Synthia,

    I have been in Scientology for over 25 years. I am OT V and I have had the biggest wins in training all that time until I did OT V, then it was a toss- up which was best. I have never been told “you pulled that in” in all those years. By what I have been reading, it sounds like it came from within the SO.

    I don’t know who started this “you pulled it in”, it sounds like very old stuff, like “as you sow so shall you reap” “what goes around, comes around” “Karma” “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”. Now I am not saying that can’t happen sometimes….If I go up to a guy, sitting in a bar, drunk, with a gun and I say to him something like “you look like an ass hole” and I get hit, or worst…yes, I can say, “I pulled that in” and I would more than likely be right. So you can see, through time, people have observed this and made a computation that all people pull things in.

    Things don’t just happen in life because you pull things in for what you have done in the past. Things can happen because of Suppression, PTSness, Engrams, MU’s, working on false data, out-ethics….and so so much more. Ron may not of wrote anything on not saying “you pulled it in” to correct it, but he didn’t have to. If you understand the tech, it is all right there. Ron wrote all kinds of tech on why not to do something like that to a person. Eval, Inval, Auditor’s Code, caving in a person, black Scientology, etc.

    This is a stable datum for me: If you indicate the correct by pass charge to a person, it will blow. Now for anyone who has been told “you pulled it in” did that blow the charge for you or did it add more charge? I am guessing it didn’t handle it, it made it worst. WRONG INDICATION! WRONG WHY! Unless you have received a correction on all the times you were told “you pulled that in” I am guessing you still have by pass charge on it.

    Now in the story above where I was nasty to the drunk guy in the bar and I got hit…if I realized that I caused that (or as some say “pulled that in”, well then my charge would blow because that was a correct indication to myself, but it was me who realized that.

    I am really sorry to hear that this shit was run on some people in the SO. Most of the people I have meet over the years in the SO are great Souls and I appreciate their service in helping me get to were I am today. All who have served and all who are still in should be very well taken care of. I am deeply in indebted to all of you.

    • lunamoth permalink
      May 23, 2010 5:17 am

      It’s Just Me – Really? This “you pulled it in” is new to you? Where have you been living, as a scientologist for the past 25 years, if I may ask? My god, if I had a dime for every time I’d heard
      that phrase used on any flow, I’d be a friggin’ Patron With Honors (well, no I wouldn’t, but my point is made).

      It permeates every level and expression of scientology culture, from the very top of Int management
      (Sea Org), down the ranks of the orgs and missions, to the ABLE organizations, to the field. EVERY level.

      It’s strange to me to hear a long-term scientologist make it sound like that’s not the case. And I’ve been paying attention, as a scientologist, for the past 31 years myself.

      Anyone else to whom this concept is news?

      • May 23, 2010 2:05 pm

        The people in the Orgs perhaps… but not not so much in the public. It’s because of bad top management who sets the “corporate” culture. We should have Travolta or somebody at the top. Someone nice. Pay your bills, clean you clothes, behave.

        Sometimes as a Scientologist I feel ashamed of how many morons are inside. But as usual, there’s a lot of god stuff as well. EVERY church, corporate etc have these problems but the CoS seems to have more of these problems.

        Start off by changing management.

      • Its me again permalink
        May 23, 2010 4:28 pm

        Ok, again…. If you heard this… did you ever ask for the reference? Did this not seem odd to you that a person would evaluate why something happened to you? I am assuming that you have had some basic tech training or you at least understand how auditing works.

        Who said this? Do you remember names? Has it been said to you? If said to you, did it indicate or make you feel worse? I really can understand how this went on for so long and no one thought to ask, WITH A LOT OF INTENTION, to any person saying this “WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU TRYING TO DO?”

        No, I never heard this statement said to anyone. Of course I was only on staff for 2 1/2 years in the late 80’s, doing my internship and auditing. I was on Quals lines. After that I was off lines for about 8 years, then I went to do my OT Levels. After that I was off lines again for about 9 years. I wasn’t really involved like most, but I kept in touch once in a while with a course here or a course there. I am pretty tight with my money, so I only do something when I have the time and income.

        When ever I am asked Why I am not “doing something” or “giving something” this is always my standard answer: I don’t know why and I am not going to List on it or come up with a wrong Why, that is between me, my CS and auditor. I DISLIKE ANYONE TRYING TO GET ME TO LIST ON ANYTHING out of session! (this is out-tech) And with a lot of ARC I have made that very clear.

        This stuff is standard basic Scientology, anyone who knows anything about Scientology knows this. I can’t be the only one who thinks just because it has been going on for so long that someone at sometime, anywhere should of asked….WHERE THE HELL Is THAT REFERENCE?

        You have been tricked into thinking this was Scientology. We have all been tricked at one time or another on the track. Everybody says it, it must be true




        This is not a workable technology. This is not Scientology. I am sorry, but there is just too much of the same data on the internet. Yes, I can’t say I have see this personally, but I have very good perceptions, I can look and see something is very wrong within the Church from reading the new releases, without showing us the missing data written by LRH . This is what happens when tech is altered for punishment or money, and ARC broken field.

        Is that the game we are going to play now with Scientology? Is the actual intention to free people or keep feeding people some crumbs of freedom with the intention of keeping them trapped? If altering tech to punish and make Beings slaves is the Goal, well look around, that has already been done and it’s been done so good people don’t even know they are trapped!

        Am I talking to deaf ears? I am not here to make you wrong, I am here asking for help. Please search your soul…Look, Don’t Listen.

        Remember….We are all in this together.

      • May 23, 2010 8:00 pm

        Its me again,
        Re: “anyone who knows anything about Scientology knows this”.

        Pal, you’re in the wrong place.
        This one is named LEAVING scientology.
        Do you see the name?

      • John Doe permalink
        May 25, 2010 2:26 am

        IMO, this, “You pulled it in” thing tends to be used by people that are just repeating it being heard from others. I’ve never read any HCOB called “Pulling it in” yet the term is bandied about quite frequently. Even in flow 0, such as, “I pulled in a cold.”

        It is one of those things that the “culture” of scientology promulgates, even if there isn’t much LRH has said about it. Sort of like how terms like “off purpose” have become to mean anything the church doesn’t want you to do, rather than the actual meaning.

    • May 23, 2010 8:20 am

      Its me again,
      If instead of “pulled it in”, I say “whatever bad happened to you, you caused it and you have to take responsibility for that” – will it sound more like what LRH said that you *can* agree with? Or is that something you never heard of either?

      Now, I see that in every post of yours you give some data from LRH. Please, understand that it’s just *purely data*. Do you remember LRH’s Logics where he said that “the data is as valuable as it is evaluated”?
      Well, guess what? That data on Overt Motivator Sequence, PTSness, Cause and Effect, Responsibility HAS been evaluated by scientologists to lead to things like that “pulled it in” from Jan Eastgate to be considered *normal* to state.
      I’m sure you – having gone all the way up to OTV have run in your auditing things like “my cuurent condition was caused (pulled in) by me from that accident where I had done stupid thing”. You must be having such thoughts as, “I’m in such state now because I caused it”, “People kept degrading themselves lifetime after lifetime to be in this poor condition now”, “The planet is going to pieces becuase people caused it…”
      So, why is the concept new to you?
      Lunamoth said my thought, “Pulled it in is part of culture of scientology”

      And a rhetoric question: isn’t APPLICATION for the man off the street (NOT *purely data*) is what scientology all about?
      Why then bother to ask whether LRH had said it? Shouldn’t we just look at results of how it’s being APPLIED??

      Its me again, if you STILL don’t see how “you pulled it in” is right out of LRH’s writings, I suggest you to do a clay demo of it and you will see just how many parallels of that datum with everything else LRH said about “Flow 1” (? – what’s done to you).

      • lunamoth permalink
        May 23, 2010 8:26 pm

        VaD – you really broke that down very clear terms. Thanks for such a illuminating response.


      • Its me again permalink
        May 23, 2010 9:53 pm

        Oh my Gods. I know that writing is at the bottom of my list of what I like to do or can do well, but come on. Am I not being duplicated because I write so badly ?

        I will try to make this simple:

        My definition of Cause is NOT the same has “you pulled that in”. That is evaluating for the person and is the reactive minds’ concept of a viewpoint or the effort to shift someone’ viewpoint.

        Cause is high on the Tone Scale and Shame Blame and Regret, way down there.

        Yes, we are cause… I understand that. Evaluating or invalidating someone or their case does not make a person better, therefore that tech is not useful. I said there is no reference where you would ever say that to a person. If someone is sick, in an accident, just suffered a engram, a great loss or hurt, you would never say, “you pulled that in”. That is not help.

        My understanding of how this was used was to make the person wrong or degrade that person. Basically to control.

        I don’t know if this came about in a group engram at one time and it was never run out or what. I couldn’t tell you.

        The Bible says “as you reap so shall you sow”, but most members of a church wouldn’t say to someone who has just experienced an upset or loss in life, “well as you reap, so shall you sow”. Any normal human being with some feelings for his fellow man knows deep down inside this is not how to handle the person in front of him who is suffering.

        The Bridge is there for a reason. It is done in gradient steps…and everyone is on it somewhere. When one is at Cause on all Dynamics, the person will know it himself.

      • May 24, 2010 10:49 am

        Its me again,
        Ok! I duplicated you. I see where you are coming from.
        You basically say that the tech is fine and philosophy is fine, and it’s just people using it are “non-standard” and “suppressive”. And I agree with you on that. So, the problem is “non-standard” people. (And as someone stated on this blog, in “Bridge to Nowhere” thread, “so all the non-standard people should be shot down and isolated, and this way tech will give the fantastic results”). And I consider myself that exact “non-standard” person on whom this tech and philosophy doesn’t work. Your solution?

        In other words, you are talking about theory, and I’m talking about ACTUALITY. THAT’s the difference.

        Let me give this thing I heard – one woman chopped her arm off because in The Bible it says that (paraphrased) “if your left arm seduces you into a sin, chop it off because you won’t get into the Kingdom of God”.
        Now, is this PRACTICE common among Christians?

        What about “you pulled it in”? – Well, it’s COMMON in scientology. I’m not the only witness to this. I’m sure Jeff can tell about HIS share of it (or what HE had witnessed).

        Is “you pulled it in” suppressive? – Yes, you betcha.
        Who is the source? – I recommend you to watch this video of Hana Whitfield in Hamburg where she speaks about how LRH locked a 4-year old boy in chain locker.
        (I think, it’s in Part 2 but both parts are worth watching).

        Are you still convinced that “you pulled it in” didn’t exist with Hubbard on the line?
        Or the fact that he didn’t write those exact words in his “scriptures” tells you that “if it’s not written, it’s not true”?
        Well, think again.

      • May 24, 2010 11:26 am

        And in case LRH’s own brutality, inhumanity and madness STILL don’t correlate to you with “they pulled it in”,
        answer me to this: what kind of mindset had LRH to have to do these things to people?
        I think it’s well explained by “he/she pulled it in” (including that 4-year old boy Derrick Green kept there for 5 days and nights who, as LRH said to his mother, “Children are adults in children’s bodies… He knows what he’s done”).

        I DO believe Hana because I can feel this mindset all the way throughout scientology.

        Now, if you want to tell me that “technology and philosophy are good when correctly applied” or when you say to me that you (or some group) have FINALLY got the corrrected correct technology, and offer it to me, I will be the first one to say’NO!” (even if I stay in mirority of mankind).

        Its me again, Thank YOU for bringing up all of your points. It helps me unravel.

      • Its me again permalink
        May 24, 2010 9:39 pm


        I don’t know what types of overts LHR had, I wasn’t there. I know he received auditing, so I am guessing he thought he needed to get auditing. You know that Ruds and Corrections are done all the way up the Bridge? (the levels that are available)

        The tech is something that is native to all beings. ARC, MWH, EVAL,PTP, and everything else. If you study it and understand the mechanics, it makes perfect sense. A violation of the laws of life has the same results on everyone, even LRH. I can’t remember where I heard or read this…I think it was a tape…where LRH said something to that effect and in a way include himself. (If anyone heard that tape or read that, I am still trying to recall the name of it. Maybe I will go to Friends of LRH and see if anyone remembers it there.)

        LRH was a man, not a God. He feel under the same stress as anyone under suppression, and I believe he had his share of people trying to destroy him and the Church. What some say about him, doesn’t make me think less of the tech. Some see in others what they see in themselves.

        I have come to a point on the Bridge were I am certain it works. I never heard him say or write he was perfect and above the tech.

        I never worshiped him like some but, I appreciate his hard work and efforts in wanting to help us get out of this trap. Everyone does things that they regret later and anyone who says otherwise is delusional.

        All I know is that after he left, things got worse in the Church. You have to remember a lot of people loved LRH also. He considered himself rich in friends. I have only meet him in tapes and bulletins…he seemed to have a lot of ARC to me.

    • May 25, 2010 9:34 am

      Its me again,
      I think I got where our disagreement comes from.
      I read Jeff’s post. Let me paraphrase – it says, “Shit happened”. I’m mad at Jan Eastgate for the fact of ruining mental state of 11-year old girl by telling her she “pulled it in” while in fact it required pure justice and her rehabilitiation as a being. Then I read elsewhere (on ESMB) Church’s official statement saying “NO shit happened, and couldn’t possibly have happened at all”. I’m even more mad – at both Jan Eastgate AND the Church defending her crime.
      Then I read your comments where you tell people things from the perspective that, “This and that Shit shouldn’t have happened if the technology was correctly applied”. It gives me nausea, to tell you the truth… even without your rebuttal of the fact.

      Then I say to you, “Shit happens all the time within CoS” and we give you more evidence. To that you say to the extent, “Shit shouldn’t be happening were LRH’s writings closely followed”.

      To give you parallels from history.
      There WAS inquisition, there WERE witch burnings, there WERE crusades and killings in the name of God.
      How good is to say, “Well, it shouldn’t have happened because there is nothing about it in the Bible”?

      Or jihad, or suicidal bombers, or assassinations…. “Well, it shouldn’t have happened because there is nothing in Koran about it”?

      Just so you see my perspective here: I’m talking facts, you are talking theory “LRH said/didn’t say…”.

      Yes, such shit shouldn’t have happened and shouldn’t be happening, but shit in fact HAS BEEN happening. And this is evil. And we agree on that.
      What is your solution? To give people more scientology, to educate them, to put taboo on certain statements and issue lists of “Dos and Dont’s”, “Say – Don’t say”? And then enforce them? – Well, that will give us another circle of the same shit (because that IS what’s already in LRH’s policies).

      Oh, yeah, I believe this post wasn’t intended for the Subjuntive Mood discussions (like “If we all had learned and applied Scientology well, there wouln’t be any need to write about such atrocious things and the Planet would be Clear by now” – just didn’t happen. What happened are shitloads of all kinds of shit. Facts).

      Its me again,
      Please, don’t take offence. I understand you now.

      • May 25, 2010 9:47 am

        Its me again,
        On the positive side, I’m glad that/if you PRACTICE what you are preached and what you preach.
        If it helps you and others, that’s great!

        My achievements in scientology are SO Product 1, OEC Vol0, and Student Hat. It’s more than enough for me to be looking for more this lifetime.

      • Its me again permalink
        May 26, 2010 4:15 pm


        Sorry, I just saw your post.

        I think you are misduplicating me (or how I write). I am not saying that the things you talk about above should not of happened if the tech was followed. I am saying that the phrase “you pulled it in” is not a workable phrase and doesn’t do anything but give a person a feeling that the incident was their fault that it happened. Trying to put anyone down the Tone scale into Blame, just puts them down tone. Make sense?

        Let’s take Scientology out of it. Don’t you think that most people inherently know that telling a person “it was your fault that this happened to you because of something you did in the past” is just plain wrong to do? Don’t you think that most people have a little more compassion for their fellow man who is hurting or is feeling badly to say something like this? Most people’s first reaction would to try and help the person (I say most) no matter what they thought of the person themselves. Most people do not like to see someone else suffer, this is just a basic feeling in most of us.

        My point is that this is not the correct response, in Scientology or in life in general.

        And if you are in Scientology saying this just because it was said to you or everyone else says it so it must be true, it is just out-tech, no matter what the justification or reason is in doing it. Of course people in Scientology do things that they look back on and think, well that was stupid of me to do….and some just don’t have a clue. People in Scientology are like the rest of the human race, they react and act on things like everyone else. (I am getting the feeling that maybe I should just give you examples without mentioning Scientology, I can do that because a lot of Scientology is just common sense it’s basics are things we all inherently know, but just explained in more details).

        Sorry, I don’t believe that Shit just happens…Like this thing with Jan. If it is true, then she had some type of reason for doing it in her mind. What it was, well we can speculate, but she is the only one who really knows. You don’t accidentally tell a child to keep quite about being sexually abused. The child was not accidentally abuse, it was done intentionally by a so called step father. All this shit didn’t just happen. It was done.

        I hope this cleared things up.

  26. Soderqvist:1 permalink
    May 23, 2010 8:54 am

    It’s me again wrote: If I go up to a guy, sitting in a bar, drunk, with a gun and I say to him something like “you look like an ass hole” and I get hit, or worst…yes, I can say, “I pulled that in” and I would more than likely be right.

    Soderqvist1: but what have the guy in the bar done in order to attract or pull in a snidely comment from you? None as far as I can see, but you are guilty to harassment, and he is guilty to assault, because neither action can be justified by appeal to the law of self-defense, because neither of you are in a state of emergency. Ethics is a personal thing which means that you as the Age of Majority are free to do anything you want, that is the rule of social behavior, and thus what happens to others are their own responsibilities, the exception is if you have signed a legal contract and have done something which is breach of contract, you are responsible. Btw, the CoS‘s contract is from a juridical point of view worthless. Crimes is a different matter, because it is antisocial behavior in example offender versus victim, it is a matter of Justice, and the offender is always responsible for what he has done, not the victim, yet the victim can take responsibility for his condition by report to the Police!

  27. Soderqvist:1 permalink
    May 23, 2010 9:11 am

    I have noted afterward that the guy in the bar has a gun in his hand I missed that part of the story when I wrote my reply, because your snide comment is unreal in that context. But let’s say that the person has no gun, and you insult a person you simply don’t like!

  28. freespirit permalink
    May 23, 2010 1:29 pm

    I SPIT on you too Jan.

  29. TheEmperorIsNaked permalink
    May 24, 2010 12:12 am

    Its me again,
    Your writing is fine and I am duplicating you. You are pointing out the simplicity of an auditor’s code break not being challenged each and every time it is perpetrated. You are correct. It should have been challenged and stopped early on. Apparently it wasn’t for many, many people. Well done on stopping it in your universe.

    I’ve had similar experiences. I was still pretty green and I had a selectee who was told this about his girlfriend. She had been molested as a child and a Mission staff told him his girlfriend “pulled it in”. I spent hours smoothing that over. Unfortunately I did not track down the out-tech staff member and make sure they got corrected.

    Also when I was pretty green, I was told I was out of valence one time in a reg cycle. I had read Book One (that is how I got in), so I knew what was being said and how silly and out tech it was to say that. I called them on it right there and it turned the comm cycle around. They were trying to introvert me. But when I called them on it they were in turn introverted. That didn’t happen again, so it is real to me you stopped it for good from happening to you.

    It is sad this happens at all to anyone. You would think Scientologists could keep the auditors code. It is an overt to do this, or stand by and allow it to be done without challenging it.

    As to “it happens all the time”, I haven’t seen that, but I have seen it occuring some times. Also, note that “everybody does it” is one of the oldest justifiers in the book. So this everybody does it all the time could fall into that category. Some of the comments I am seeing here seem more along the lines of justifying it, or transferring responsibility to Ron without clearly identifying how there is any policy of his supporting it. To me it is clearly and obviously eval and an Auditors Code break and there are many references against it. And your TR3ed challenge to show any reference supporting saying “you pulled it in” has not produced any answer yet.

    I am sorry you were not acked although your comm was fine.

    As you can see above I have overts on this by not stopping it and perhaps we were all blinded by our complicity.

  30. Marta permalink
    May 24, 2010 1:01 am

    Just wanted to say thanks again to Jeff and to each of you involved in this very authentic conversation string. The healthy banter and exchange of ideas and perspectives, the engaging clarification of opinions and information. You folks feed me!

  31. Heather G permalink
    May 24, 2010 1:13 am

    The expression As you sow, so shall you reap means that there’s a direct connection between how we act and the consequences of those actions. But you pulled it in is the opposite way around: because something bad happened, you must have sown something bad! It’s not logical. Some things happen because there are accidents in this world. Some things have multiple causes or simply “another” cause.

  32. Its me again permalink
    May 24, 2010 1:36 am


    First of all, I don’t know you and as far as I know we are not Pals.

    Second, If you are going to have a fixed view point with people on this site looking for what has been going on in Scientology, you are not helping by telling them they are on the wrong site because this is Leaving Scientology.

    Good thing for some of us who are looking to see what is going on, this is Jeff’s site and he doesn’t think that it is a crime for a person to be here and communicate.

    My hat off to Jeff.

  33. Synthia permalink
    May 24, 2010 7:35 am

    It’s me again,

    No worries. Your thoughts are heard and appreciated, truly. Is it okay that we, at times, have some fiery dialogue? This is how we all learn and see all the different beautiful angles of things. I hope you continue to bring your voice to the table. 🙂

  34. AlexMetheny permalink
    May 24, 2010 1:21 pm

    There acrually is an LRH reference where he talks about this. It is called MORE JUSTIFICATIONS in Vol VII of the tech volumes. LRH says “It really wan’t an overt because….”

    (some of the examples he gives in that reference are)

    “He was dragging it in.”

    “He must have done something to deserve it.”

    “They are only wogs anyhow.”

    “He’s such a victim already, one more motivator won’t make any difference.”

    This is a list of justifications people could use for committing overts on someone. So to me this does exhonerate LRH as he does have a reference which says basically if you use “he dragged it in” (which is the same as “he pulled it in” ) it can be used as a justification for your overt. Example: I punch Joe in the mouth and I say “He pulled it in”. That is my justification for my committing that overt on Joe. Or, Joe hits Tom in the mouth and then Paul tells Tom that he pulled it in. Paul would be justifying Joe’s overt for him as well as evaluating for Tom. Both are out-points and policy exist against both.

    It’s hard to police people setting off fireworks on the 4th of July and probably even harder to police alterations of the tech since it is “human nature” to do this kind of thing. (justify, eval, inval, etc)

    I do love the quote from Ghandi that Jeff mentioned:”Be the change that you want to see in the world.” That is sweet!!


    • Its me again permalink
      May 24, 2010 6:57 pm

      Thanks Alex,….Good reference.

  35. May 24, 2010 1:38 pm

    let me post this one here.

    I’m not after getting my viewpoint accepted by everybody (or after my blog becoming “popular”). I’m after getting everyone to think for himself.
    I want people to take in and think with other people’s viewpoints, be it “what LRH said” or others said (that hasn’t been less true because they weren’t LRH).

  36. Just Me permalink
    May 24, 2010 2:43 pm

    I’ve been thinking all weekend about whether I should try to put a coda to the comment I made last Friday night (at

    Shockingly, I haven’t responded earlier because my feelings got hurt by Jeff’s response. And you’d have to know me well to appreciate just how shocking that is. Obviously, to use the lingo, my ARCX was in proportion to the preceding ARC.

    So in an attempt to be better understood, I did not mean to imply in my comment above (because I do not think it) that Jeff has ever said “Scientology is all bullshit.” I didn’t mean that, and truly regret if Jeff felt I was accusing him of that, even obliquely. I wasn’t, because he hasn’t done that.

    To try to clarify further, I’m very much a middle-of-the-road person about the subject of Scientology. I don’t care at all where someone winds up on the subject. I will never wind up on either extreme of that continuum. Therefore, I don’t profit so much from conversations where others are trying to ram their viewpoints down my throat—whether those viewpoints are on the right, left, up or down.

    I long ago got used to and tuned out various Church lines of “Think like us.” But for the last five months online I’ve had to get used to anti-Scientology lines of “No, think like us.” Sometimes I really don’t see much of a difference. You see, it’s not so much a specific opinion that someone holds that bothers me, but the ways they work so hard to be right and win me over to their side that I ultimately find patronizing and irritating.

    Obviously, the best perspective to take (and I do most of the time) is that everyone is simply trying to find their way. Therefore, the conversations I prefer to participate in are those that honor that process and our many differences, which will never be fully resolved – not those conversations that involve flag-planting and defending to the death.

    There. That’s what I wanted to say. So sorry I didn’t say it better the first time.

    The final point I want to make is that this little boo boo reminds me that these blogs and boards are quite imperfect communication media. They’re limited by our communication abilities, our anonymity and the information we don’t share, the assumptions we make about others, and the momentary stresses we’re under. We’re asking an awful lot of these media when we use them simultaneously as tools for our therapy, relationships, and political agendas.

    And now, as the kids say, I will lurk moar.

    Just Me

    • Suzanne permalink
      May 24, 2010 7:35 pm

      Hey, Just Me –

      I totally dig what you are saying. Sometimes you throw yourself out there and it feels pretty vulnerable. Lord knows, I’ve had my share of misunderstandings – I’ve completely missed others’ points and have also had my comments misunderstood. It can be frustrating for me, especially since I tend toward sarcasm which makes it even more confusing for some.

      You are right – it is an imperfect medium. Yet I would rather throw myself out there and be able to have a grown-up conversation with my peers than once again be shielded from information so that I “don’t get false data” or “hear something I can’t handle”. I LIKE rolling around in all the wildly different viewpoints and opinions. If I were a veal cutlet, I’d have a 10-inch layer of breading on me by now! ha ha

      So, keep posting, keep throwing it out there but expect some misduplication. It goes with the territory. Until we can finally “mind meld” – I’m afraid we’re stuck using the imperfection of “language”. Your posts are always valuable and enlightening to me. XO

      • Its me again permalink
        May 24, 2010 8:54 pm


        I don’t really don’t mind that I am misduplicated. I am get mostly frustrated with myself, I don’t really like writing and I tend to just rabble on too long and then I don’t proof read my writing. I can understand how I can be misduplicated at times.

        Oh, by the way, The 10 inch layer of breading is the best part of the cutlet.


    • John Doe permalink
      May 25, 2010 2:39 am

      Just Me,

      I understand. I am a middle-of-the-road person as well. There are extremists everywhere. I tend to be repelled by that. I have found Jeff to be very tolerant, allowing many viewpoints to interchange, including some fairly extremist.

      I understood your first post, and hope you will continue your voice here. I find it valuable.


    • Just Me permalink
      May 25, 2010 7:40 am

      Suzanne and John,

      Thank you for the duplication! There’s nothing quite like that — being understood. It feels just wonderful.

      BTW, you may have noticed my decision to lurk moar lasted just a few hours. Oh well, so much for my ability to not communicate.

      And now, onward and upward.

      Just Me

  37. Its me again permalink
    May 24, 2010 4:45 pm

    The Emperor is Naked,

    Thanks for the communication. My intention was not to make anyone feel they committed an overt for not stopping this. It was more to indicated to anyone this had been done to that no one had a right to evaluate their case, invalidate them, make the them feel wrong or any other bad feelings the person felt after this was said.

    We have all made mistakes or have had MU’s. Not one of us here is perfect.

    “In the presence of suppression, one makes mistakes. People making mistakes or doing stupid things is evidence that an SP exists in that vicinity”. MISTAKES, ANATOMY OF HCOB 12 MARCH 1968.

    Heather G….Thank you also for the communication.

    Alex Metheny,

    I agree, the first step is to get the SP’s out of the Church and then people will destim and de-pts. I am trying to figure out if there is a solid plan in place to get this done or if these sites are just to itsa.

    I have to tell you, when I read some of the stuff that has been going on that is so out-tech, I am going to have to speak out. I will not, and cannot just leave anyone to believe that what has been run on them with perverted tech or someones psychotic means of controlling them was ok to do. I am not just going to stand by and read all the INSANITIES being run or have been run on people and not say anything. THE TRAP WAS MADE A VERY LONG TIME AGO, THIS STUFF BEING RUN ON BEINGS IN THE NAME OF A GROUP THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER TO GET BEINGS OUT OF THE TRAP, KEEPS THEM IN THE TRAP…that game needs to stop.

    Thanks again.

  38. martyrathbun09 permalink
    May 24, 2010 5:43 pm

    Could it get any more hypocritical than this?

    • Jeff permalink*
      May 24, 2010 6:44 pm

      Marty, Amen.

  39. Jeff permalink*
    May 24, 2010 6:54 pm

    Well, this thread has gone into some interesting directions. When you pretty much allow anyone to speak their mind, as I do, it can get rough and tumble and people can get their feathers ruffled. But don’t worry about me getting upset by a contrary opinion – I actually thrive on a spirited debate and I like it when people say what’s on their mind. Someone once said that we only learn from people who disagree with us, and I believe that.

    My only objection, on any blog, is when people get abusive to other posters, and I generally block that. I covered this on my earlier post on religious extremism. There is a path towards fanaticism, and it starts with thinking that people who disagree with you are “misinformed” (something I have NEVER been guilty of…lol) and then progresses through thinking they are stupid to thinking they are evil to thinking they must be destroyed.

    And there are some people who cannot listen to a contrary opinion without feeling they are being personally attacked and feeling the need to attack back.

    I believe in respectful dialogue, and I think most posters are with me on this. I think we can openly discuss anything, including LRH and Scientology, without getting nasty with each other. And I think we can all learn by bouncing ideas and arguments around.

    • Its me again permalink
      May 24, 2010 7:41 pm

      Well Jeff, at least it looks like this subject on your site got some Tone Arm Action, that’s good right? (LOL)

      Keep sane,

    • May 24, 2010 8:42 pm

      I find it hard lately to talk to a hard-line scientologist or to those who still sustain “scientology is the best answer to life” (is not “the only answer”). For some reason, they just block communication line.

      Yesterday – again – I got a call from Flag. This time it was from my old S.O. friend Irina Shakhova (whom I hadn’t talked to since being assigned to RPF in 2003). She’s doing fine, and on OTII at Flag. She’s an SO member. I guessed it was a sales call and indicated it to her. She laughed and then we had a little chat in “uptone” mode. Then I told her that she has to run from there, and she just hung up – right away (after saying that she thought that I had already done my conditions to SO). She didn’t even ask me “Why?”
      Few days before I had conversation with Tatiana Baklanova (FreeZoner) on FB re scientology. Once I told her there are other, may be even better answers to life and paths of spiritual progress than scientology, she stopped answering (prior to that her answers were prompt).

      Jeff, to your point: I agree and enjoy interchanging opinions as long as the other side sticks to it and doesn’t get into “ad hominem” or abusive stuff.
      What I keep noticing, though, is that pro-scientologists tend to stop communicating once you said what’s to them is “heresy”.
      Or is it just me?

      • Its me again permalink
        May 24, 2010 9:53 pm


        I have a comm to you above because I didn’t see your comm to me before.

        If you have come across a way out that I don’t know about, let me know. I will look at it. I don’t know how far you got up the Bridge before you left, but you must understand that some of us who at least got to OT V will probably have a different view point. Not to say that yours is wrong, it just may be different.

        Hey, I looked before, I am willing to look again. What do you got?

      • Marta permalink
        May 24, 2010 10:11 pm

        VaD –

        I’ll jump in here and say, no it’s not just you – you evidently encountered at least a couple of people who preferred not to continue discussing a topic with you at that particular time. I just think that like anything else there are degrees of tolerance for differing ideas, opinions, perspectives , etc.. Especially if some of the ideas are sacred cows (deeply rooted beliefs) held as unshakable truths or are very important to the person as core values.

        But, using words like “pro-scientologists tend to….” could be received as a prejudice or a “me and them” attitude. And telling someone “there are other, maybe better answers” might communicate you consider it a fact rather than a possibility or your opinion.

        Ultimately, continuing to look and communicate will prevail and I appreciate your tenacity in that regard!

      • May 25, 2010 9:57 am

        “Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers” :0
        You are right, I have to be more tolerant to other’s perspectives. I’m somewhat straightforward in my statements to others (willingly uneducated in being sly PR master). For that I do “pull in” my share of sufferings. 😉

        This post above, though, was to illustrate the value of free interchange of ideas between a believer and non-believer. And it’s easy for me to do with anyone else (any denomination or atheist) than with scientologists.

        Re: “Us and them” – i’m working to get over it, to bring down my cherished self-importance (which sometimes gets off the rails and gets wild). 😦

      • May 25, 2010 10:21 am

        Its me again,
        Re: “I don’t know how far you got up the Bridge before you left” – answered in above reply to you.
        Re: “some of us who at least got to OT V will probably have a different view point” – agree and, to tell you the truth, that’s what makes my dialogs here more interesting and enlightening since I’d never before been able to freely discuss and interchange with OTs re problems of life and see their true viewpoints (all was covered by thick smog of PR – like my conversations with Kirk Mossing, OTVII, last year via email).
        Re: “If you have come across a way out that I don’t know about, let me know”. – you see? – I don’t look for the “way out” because I don’t think I’m “in” (some “trap”). I just take and enjoy what my life gives me, i.e. healthy agrument about significant for others things. I’m not looking for my life to give me much and to remove “those pesky engrams and aberrations”. I’m happy with myself. If I’m not, I just look within or go for a walk, or go to bed (“The best bridge between despair and hope is good night sleep”). I like to learn from myself, other people than from books about myself and my life.
        To me, “Everything, including life and death, has its taste” (paraphrased from Koran).
        Something like that…

      • May 25, 2010 11:32 am

        To clarify this last one (“Everything, including life and death, has its taste”) so there is no implications that I’m a fatalist (which I’m not):
        Whatever bad things may get on my plate, it’s for the lesson to be learned. Bumping forehead against the rakes teaches you not to be so self-deceptive and arrogant. And, in the end, it is a GOOD lesson. It has its own “taste” to it, and one shouldn’t be so worried and extremely careful about not getting head bumped (not getting in trouble with…).

      • Marta permalink
        May 25, 2010 5:58 pm

        VaD – Re Sacred Cows and Us & Them:

        Just one of the things I love about you, VaD, is you’re just right on out there, honest and face forward! I recognize your statements are your opinions – just might not be that everyone does 🙂

  40. Marta permalink
    May 24, 2010 8:01 pm

    Jeff and all,

    I ran across this quote today and it reminded me of the diversity in this thread, how much I appreciate this site and all of the movement taking place:

    “Change means movement. Movement means friction.” -Saul Alinsky

    • Its me again permalink
      May 24, 2010 11:12 pm


      I believe that came from Saul Alinsky’s, “Rules for Radicals.” Yes it makes sense in a common way, but I just wanted to make sure you understand were he is coming from..He is a transformational marxist and believes in social justice…you know, reward the non productive and penalize the product. That whole book is about how to slowly take over our current system of government and transform it into a social justice system with the rules he outlines.

      I don’t mean to get off the subject, but I just wanted to give you that data, not get into politics.

      But in the way you are looking at it, thanks, I see what you mean.

      • May 25, 2010 12:05 pm

        Its me again,
        If instead of Marta’s words hse said, “When you bring in order, confusion blows”, will it sound more truthful.
        To me, empirically speaking, both Alinsky’s and Hubbard’s words are about the same observations. IMHO

      • Marta permalink
        May 25, 2010 5:53 pm

        Not worrying too much about the whole subject the quote came…. Just using quotes that point out observations about like, made by people in addition to Hubbard. There’s a lot of good “cherry picking” out there.

    • Marta permalink
      May 25, 2010 6:02 pm

      Meant to say “quotes about life” not like. BTW – I think Alinksy’s advice here is sound for us “radicals” – that is, not to be too concerned with (or turned aside by) friction because it means, to use a scientology term, there’s TA occurring.

  41. sherrymk permalink
    May 25, 2010 12:50 am

    Great thread, but that’s the norm for Jeff’s blog.

    As far as “you pulled it in”. I get a nauseous feeling in the pit of my stomach every time I read or hear that line…the times I’ve said it to others, the times I’ve thought it about others and the times it’s been said to me. To admit an atrociousness about myself and example of the incredible arrogance I had while in the C of S while on OTVll, there was a SO member who worked the back lines of the IAS He had a breathing device attached to him which he pushed around as he worked. . I recall that one day I was in the office where he had been working and someone told me he had died of the illness he had. What was my comment? “I hope he got his Service Facs handled.”. When I think of what an unfeeling, incompassionate, place I must have been in to even THINK let alone VOICE this, I want to bury my head along with my body. Absolutely despicable. Who was this “thing” I called ME???

    It’s the same unfeeling, incompasssionate, “you’re responsible for your own case”, “you pulled it in” type of crap logic that lead to Eastgate stating such an obviously insane thing to an 11 year old. And the “past life” evaluation? This is the kind of in-thinking of most Scientologists..whether indie, freezone or whatever. Sorry, but I’ve heard it hundreds of times…and hearing it or thinking it doesn’t change one ounce of anything for anyone in a positive sense. The only thing it does is introvert one sufficiently to be able to be regged to purchase more auditing and sec checks to discover what you’ve done or didn’t do…and endless cycle.

    Then, on OTVlll, you get to realize that none of anything you thought you found out…in all those sec checks and auditing, anything that isn’t from this present lifetime..wasn’t YOU or YOURS anyways…just some other identities meanderings and/or left over impressions! WTF????

    I guess I and all the other misevaluated for PCs, Pre-OTs and OTs, must have “pulled in” not being Clear. Must have “not taken responsibility for our cases”. I myself didn’t “take responsibility for my case” obviously since, 6 of the times I was told I was clear, I actually “wasn’t”. The jury’s still out on that one…

    But ya know..I pulled it in. And just in time too…to realize I could pull it out with some semblance of my sanity.

    • Just Me permalink
      May 25, 2010 2:35 am

      God, Sherry! That’s a powerful, honest post. Thank you,

      Just Me

    • Its me again permalink
      May 25, 2010 2:52 am

      Don’t be so hard on yourself, we all have said things we regret, whether it is us or our case, to a responsible person, it really doesn’t make any difference once we lose control and it comes out of our month.

      Your a good and kind person, you took responsibility, let to go.

      Keep sane,


    • Marta permalink
      May 25, 2010 3:04 am

      “And just in time too…to realize I could pull it out with some semblance of my sanity.”

      Sherry – oh, girl! I’ll be smiling about this one for a good while – and then I’ll tuck it away and “pull it out” again from time to time when I feel like re-enjoying the grins. What a hoot!

    • Freetothink permalink
      May 25, 2010 4:47 am

      Sherry I just want to give you a big hug 🙂

      Reading this thread is like getting a glass of cold water in the face! OMG, “I/you/they pulled it in”, I heard it, I agreed with it, I allowed it to be used on me, I used it on others, … CONTAGION OF ABBERATION!!!!!

      Thank God I’m now waking up!!!! I can’t get over how many stupid things I’ve gone along with through the years. I’m wisening up but this thread made me realize I’m still infected!

      It’s me again, thanks for asking the question “When someone tells you ” you pulled it in”….were the hell does that come from? ” It hit me like a ton of bricks, but it was very therapeutic 🙂

      • sherrymk permalink
        May 25, 2010 6:27 am

        Thanks Freetothink,

        “you pulled it in” is a shorter version of “You pulled in a motivator so you must have an overt behind it”. Doesn’t matter if those exact words are used or written somewhere. That’s what they mean. So all bets are on as to “which of the millions of overts one’s committed on “the track” caused this particular motivator”…endless introversion…of course, there is NO responsibility on the part of the C of S who, as anyone with eyes can see, has “pulled in” countless “motivators” . The C of S is special though in that there are no overts behind theirs. Just a bunch of SPs out to stop the “unprecedented expansion”. …for which the parishoners pay and pay and pay.

  42. Synthia permalink
    May 25, 2010 2:28 am


    Tears are rolling down my cheek. You are so lovely. I know EXACTLY what you mean. Life is about love.

    Love, Sindy

  43. lunamoth permalink
    May 25, 2010 2:54 am

    Sherrymk, GOOD FOR YOU!

    Let’s ALL just pull it out!!

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