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The Last Roundup

February 2, 2010

Well, the Church of Miscavology is pulling out all the stops. The Freewinds MAA has been sent to LA and is working with others on a major investigation of public Scientologists – particularly OT VIIIs. They are trying to find out “who is reading the internet” and “how did they find out about certain blogs.”

Well, I can save them a bit of time. The answer to the first question is “pretty much everybody” and the answer to the second is “Google.”

But of course they know that. The purpose of the investigation isn’t really to get information, it’s to exert control, to send a message to the field that they’d better toe the line.

And the OT VIIIs? They’re being rounded up and sent to the Ship. They’re calling it a “recall.” That’s right, that’s the word they’re using. As if OT VIIIs were cars with defective clutches.

The only difference is, if Ford recalls an Explorer SUV, they have to pay to repair or replace them. With the Church, the product pays. OT VIIIs pay for their own repairs, their own Sec Checks.

But again, it’s not about correction. It’s about control.

But there’s another difference between an OT VIII and a car. When a car is recalled, it just gets shipped off. When an OT VIII is “recalled,” they might, just might, decide not to go.

  1. sherrymk permalink
    February 2, 2010 6:13 am

    “The Last Roundup”…that’s a good one..and it will probably be just exactly that..the LAST roundup…because there is only so much the OTVllls will take before they won’t take any more. The CofS is pushing it’s own top public away and setting the stage for a complete mass exit. The real “Truth Revealed” rundown. So be it.

    And, from what I’ve recently heard, this news only scratches the surface of the information on the real behind-the-scenes story of what is happening with the OTVlls and Vllls.

    Seems like the exit door from the C of S is jammed open and won’t be closing any time soon.

    • lunamoth permalink
      February 2, 2010 5:07 pm

      Sherry, you give me hope.



  2. David Mudkips permalink
    February 2, 2010 8:09 am

    Fuckin’ A — I hope they are stupid enough to try to round-up and pressure OT VIII’s who have (gasp) dared to look for themselves at the huge of amount of information about Scientology on the internet.

    This will only serve to confirm the doubts & worries these people have that the CoS is doing their best to control the information they have access to. For those still capable of critical thought, this will set off huge alarm bells in their heads.

    I’ve always been amazed that the CoS, purportedly, tells its members to collect and evaluate all of the available informaition… while simultaneously telling them to avoid “entheta” (i.e., ANY information critical of the organization and processes it sells).


  3. February 2, 2010 8:15 am

    “Last Roundup”

    Now that’s a very appropiate title Rebel.

    The folly of this action goes beyond merely a foot bullet to the equivalent of unloading a Mac 10 on their toteses!

    Well all I can say is fire away 🙂

  4. Mary Jo permalink
    February 2, 2010 12:08 pm

    Excellent posting, again, Rebel008! Yes the VIIIs need to run for the hills in the opposite direction. C’mon, how much abuse can you take?!

    Like your tag line says- the only way out is out!

    And this “church” is so openly promoting how the “upper level public” get treated, who wants to go “up the Bridge”?

    Can you just see the ad: Pay all your money, get heavily into debt, have no time for life and have it completely controlled so we can treat you like the scum that you are. Hip, hip…….puke.

    • lunamoth permalink
      February 2, 2010 5:06 pm

      God, Mary Jo, this made me laugh! (Not a funny subject at all so I appreciate the chance to blow a little charge like that).

      I hadn’t looked at it from that viewpoint – The OT VIII’s have long known how controlling and invalidating this kind of treatment feels, but now they have to confront how controlled and invalidated it makes them LOOK, as well. Somehow, realizing that others see your predicament can often make you take a good, hard look at yourself. I hope with all my heart that this proves to be the last straw for some of those who have paid so much and come so far, only to be treated so badly.

      But what’s next for the rest of them, those who just go along with this treatment? Maybe dm will have them all micro-chipped on this trip to the ship so he can really keep track of them.

      • Mary Jo permalink
        February 3, 2010 8:16 pm

        Lunamoth, I really want to meet you! 🙂

        I think there is some serious re-wiring that happens when VIIIs go to the Ship for “handling”. I observed with one that everything she knew, that she had observed and was factual somehow was all later not-ised after a trip to the Ship– perhaps she got a “reverse Truth Rdn”? Or it was probably a “Black Ethics handling”, complete with extortion and blackmail. Whatever happened, she was not herself and instead came back in DMs valence. That seems to be what this group now manufactures.

        I too hope that many VIIs and VIIIs still “inside” that read these blogs, OSA ops included, get to the end of the abusive road quickly and also own up to the fact that their power is going to the wrong group – a dangerous thing to do.

      • lunamoth permalink
        February 3, 2010 11:09 pm

        Oh, Mary Jo I hope to meet you one day, too!
        Hip Hip Puke! Indeed!

        I have observed first hand what you’re talking about with the OT VII’s and VIII’s who go to the ship. It’s actually scary, as in, Invasion of the Body Snatchers-scary. I used to hold out hope that those I saw who had been so afflicted could be helped by getting back on the bridge, but then I realized that it was the “bridge” that was causing it.

        I am sure, though, that the shorter dm makes the leash, the more VIII’s he will lose. From my observation, sissies don’t make it to the top of the bridge.

  5. Thought provoking permalink
    February 2, 2010 4:55 pm

    Tell it like it is, Rebel! I love the wrap up line…wait…I hear a stampede in the distance!

    Mary Jo, you hit the nail on the head. If this is what OT*s get, who wants the bridge. I am out and I have had that thought. OUCH!

  6. Terril park permalink
    February 3, 2010 12:13 am

    The more telling tale of COS collapse is auditor training, specially at the bottom of the training bridge, as that is the future. Below snippets of latest comps. Only 6 people doing lower bridge training. Those on SHBC are probably just doing it for the cheaper package
    for OT levels as has been traditional, and may never audit.

    The OT VIIs and VIIIs are the result of 60 years of the existence of the subject.

    We know that around 2003 that Anna Maria Woodard, ex data chief posted that cash bills for scientology production orgs had crossed. I’m sure things have only gone down hill since then.

    Scientology Service Completions – The Auditor (ASHO) 341 [circa December 2009 ]

    TAS : Scientology Statistics : The Auditor (ASHO) : The Auditor (ASHO) 341

    The Auditor (ASHO) 341 [ circa December 2009 ]

    PRO TRS COURSE [ 1 ]

    Sara Gill


    Sara Gill
    Steve Hayes
    Paula Hayes

    PRO METERING [ 1 ]

    Nancy Leblanc

    LEVEL IV [ 1 ]

    Richier Francour

    NED COURSE [ 1 ]

    Wendy Scheurmann

    LEVEL B [ 1 ]

    Alex Ortiz

    LEVEL C [ 1 ]

    Allison Hunter

    LEVEL E [ 1 ]

    Sandy Lattimore

    LEVEL F [ 1 ]

    Virginia Grouse

    LEVEL G [ 2 ]

    Nieves Lopez
    Ruti Ydovich

    LEVEL M [ 2 ]

    Viviana Ortiz
    Vie Uekermann

    GOLDEN DAWN [ 3 ]

    Zhanna Coonrad
    Kevin Sorrels
    Adrienne Craig

  7. Dagny permalink
    February 3, 2010 1:46 am

    Hmmm….wonder if I should be insulted that I haven’t received a recall invitation?

  8. Ex-RPFer permalink
    February 3, 2010 3:24 am

    Man I really hope more people are “Googling” and finding this site and others. It is so important to see all sides and then make a decision. But I love how the church just thinks it is god or something and it can just order people to go where they say and command them to pay money all the time. Fantastic is the depth of their ignorance.

  9. TRUTH permalink
    February 4, 2010 8:42 am

    This is what one of DM’s new OTVIIIs writes:
    “there is no hope with any other group than the current group we are all members of. These other people you are speaking to , don’t have a prayer in hell in succeeding to overthrow the church. They are unethical and will no doubt corrupt all the policies of LRH to benefit themselves. The sec check tech will go out undoubtedly as they are promoting subversive actions and in name of defense, they will be forced to lie and cheat and do all manners of other unethical conduct. Do NOT join a squirrel group.”

    Look at all the lies DM is feeding these OTs with! 😦

    • Bit Bitter permalink
      February 4, 2010 3:07 pm

      Dear Truth, You might want to mention to this OT VIII that DM has changed the delivery of grades. In order to keep to his promise of all grades within 6 intensives (made at many different “special briefings” to OT Ambassadors, Org EDs and different SO bases), he was forced to drop the Joburg out of the line up. Thats how its done now at Flag, and soon to be exported (quietly) all over the world. Opps. Looking like its not the independants who are dropping sec checking after all. That OT VIII can look forward to a brave new era in Scientology where a person can go “Clear” without any sec checking, and “OT” without only the FPRD Basic form. Tell him this is why the movement exists, because we see sec checking tech being forced on people mid OT levels (solo nots), sec check data being released to the press (SP times) and normal sec checking removed from the grade chart where it belongs. Whose the squirrel here?

      • Mary Jo permalink
        February 4, 2010 3:50 pm

        Great response BB! Classic example of Reverse Scientology, DMs specialty!: Take an important action out where it is needed and force it where it is harmful.

        But I would not hold my breath for this OT VIII to change his VP anytime soon. Many of them have gone down the rabbit hole and don’t know which way is up.

    • February 5, 2010 12:19 am

      Funny how the criminal mind accuses others of the exact same crimes they themselves commit.

      • Freedom Fighter permalink
        February 5, 2010 1:13 am

        Yep, he’s definitely taken the blue pill:

  10. lunamoth permalink
    February 4, 2010 3:57 pm

    I don’t know where else to post this, Thoughtful, but I want to tell you how much I appreciate the art and the quotes that occupy the right hand margin of this blog. It is always so technically well done, and so perfectly communicates some important element covered by your blogs. Uncle Sam is work of art, and I have printed out the Heinlein quote (writ LARGE ) and posted it in my office for all to see.

    So thank you for all that wonderful, pithy comm you create in the aesthetic band – it is very much enjoyed!


  11. lunamoth permalink
    February 4, 2010 6:51 pm

    Oops, may have addressed my last ack to the wrong person; if not Thoughtful who is providing us with an ever-changing landscape of visuals on this site, then whoever it is (and you know who you are), please accept my thanks, above.



    • Editor permalink*
      February 4, 2010 8:09 pm

      Lunamoth, thanks for the nice comments on the graphics. I’ll pass it on to our contributing graphic designer. No, it’s not Thoughtful, although he does great work too.

      • lunamoth permalink
        February 5, 2010 5:48 am

        Well deserved, Editor. Thanks for relaying my message.

  12. brendon permalink
    February 5, 2010 3:41 am

    For the first time I’ve made a post that didn’t make it through Marty’s moderation on his blog. In it, I suggested that one of the reasons people at Gold would tolerate all the crap DM lays down is precisely because they were true believing Scientologists, and that non-Scientologists wouldn’t stand for it for a minute. And I asked who was the more able being?

    I guess I crossed a line.

    The same applies here. Only an indoctrinated Scientologist would tolerate this nonsense of repeatedly paying for a faulty product. Scientology made them LESS able. Maybe with your help they will wake the hell up.

    • February 5, 2010 4:33 am

      So things like Nazi Germany never happened because in your opinion the non-Scientologists “didn’t tolerate that crap”.

      Yeah, yeah ,sure, sure.

      Why not go back to OCMB where you’ll get a friendlier reception.

      • brendon permalink
        February 5, 2010 6:40 am

        If you are going to use that analogy you need to carry it all the way through: the Nazi “I just was following orders” mentality has the same hallmark of declining to truly think for one’s self. Of course presumably in Nazi Germany one might be shot for not following orders. And, of course, Scientology supposedly bolsters the ability to think for one’s self. I don’t see much of it.

        If you want to make an accurate analogy, give me an example where people routinely and repeatedly pay for a product that was deemed to have been previously sold as defective. Scientology (and Scientologists) are full of these examples.

        Sure, the independent movement (though it sure as heck took ’em long enough to DO anything) might be some hope, but the kneejerk reaction to reject ideas that don’t fit within your preconceived notions tells me the new boss is just going to be like the old boss. For heaven’s sake don’t for a moment consider that some of the Tech doesn’t work.

      • February 5, 2010 7:15 am

        “in Nazi Germany one might be shot for not following orders.”

        Obviously, you don’t know your history brendon. I suggest reading ‘The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’ by William Shirer.

        I may be wrong but I’ve concluded your level of understanding of the subject of Scientology approaches the level of your understanding of history.

    • lunamoth permalink
      February 5, 2010 5:46 am

      I’m wondering why some one who has good intentions would come on a site like this and insult the people who predominantly post there, and the only answer I can
      come up with is, they wouldn’t.

      But a troll would.

      • brendon permalink
        February 5, 2010 6:55 am

        I’m not here to troll or ruin anyone’s fun. They are just ideas. Reject or dismiss as you see fit. And rather than a troll, I’d like to think my comments are rather thoughtful. Don’t we all?

        I suspect my opinion on things is in fact more close to what is found on “Ask the Scientologist.” I find the question of how…whether… Scientology can exist without the negatives of the current COS to be interesting.

        A lot of folks on these boards say “If we just got rid of DM it would all be OK.” I remain unconvinced, because what I see in even the independents is an unwillingness to accept where the Tech doesn’t work (all those people in the Hole “thinking for themselves” and yet still in the Hole…OTVIII’s who die of cancer…an OTVII who murders…a Clear who goes crazy).

        Instead, many just want to run LRH and nothing but, like a computer program, and stop thinking for themselves. I’ve personaly seen it and I wouldn’t wish it on anybody.

    • Editor permalink*
      February 5, 2010 7:46 am

      Gentlemen, gentlemen.

      Since it’s my site, I get a say in this.

      I tend to approach things from a bit of a different point of view. I guess that’s why I’m called Rebel. I tend to try to look at things from the point of view of the poster and see if I can learn something.

      Yes, Brendon was deliberately provocative (admit it Brendon). But he brings up an interesting point from the viewpoint of a non-Scientologist. He has been told over and over again how Scientologists and OTs have a higher awareness than he has, are higher toned, are more able…and yet he sees them being conned and manipulated in ways that he would never accept. So you can see why he might be skeptical about Scientology’s effectiveness. Actually, if we cool down a bit and look at it – he has a point.

      So what’s the reply to that? Sure you can say “get on back to OCMB, you troll!! But that isn’t really an answer, is it?

      The other thing Scientologists are supposed to be able to do is talk with anyone about any subject. So if we ridge up like porcupines at any criticism, that doesn’t really demonstrate that, does it?

      I’ve said it over and over – the only way out for Scientology and Scientologists is to live your principles. Communication is the universal solvent and all that. That’s why I allow posts on here that might get censored out on other forums. Sorry if it offends some, but I don’t believe in cutting communication or censoring opinions.

      So Brendon is skeptical of Scientology. So what? So he’s a bit obnoxious about it. So what? You’ve never been bullbaited before? I think he has a right to be skeptical, seeing what he has heard about the Church of Scientology and the way it treats people. And I think he has a right to have his say.

      I would encourage all parties to engage in actual dialog, not name calling. And have a little respect for each other.

      • February 5, 2010 8:39 am

        Valid point, Rebel.

        Maybe if brendon didn’t come across at first as an Amazing Randi clone or clown or whatever he might not be accused of being a troll.

        Instead of asserting that we must all be blind and stupid because we are Scientologists he might try opening up his mind to something beyond the old Maxist dialetic materialistic construct and try to conceive of a subjective spiritual realm that goes beyond limited yet generalized “objectivity” that excludes individuality and possibly maybe consider that not all OTs are the same as Rex Fowler and not all Clears are Lisa McPherson.

        After possibly taking this step he could ask a sensible question that if the tech supposedly works why were these two individuals such obvious failures. Allowing us to take the floor or in this case blog for discussion.

        That is if brendon really wanted an answer instead of merely propagandizing his a priori conclusions about Scientology.

      • brendon permalink
        February 5, 2010 5:48 pm


        I have to say your kind of analysis is what I find refreshing about the recent turn of discourse about Scientology among Scientologists. I also think it has tremendous promise for those who wish to believe and promote Scientology.

        Were my comments “deliberately provocative?” You bet. But they were not intended to be insulting. They are just ideas: agree with them, refute them, nuance them…all fine with me. No one gets hurt in a discussion but perhaps we can learn. But it is with Scientologists — I have several Scientologist friends — where I find that provocative ideas can equal “insult” and results in them just cutting all communication, at least for a while.

        I just don’t see that as being useful to moving the belief system forward and, as you point out, completely counter to the espoused increased ability to communicate.

        From my own experience I also know Scientologists aren’t all cut from the same cloth: yes there is the one who can’t help but quote LRH every single day about virtually everything, but there is also the upper level OT who has no problem talking about both gains and skepticism about OTIII.

        Similarly, the Scientologists here on this board are by definition NOT “blind and stupid because [they] are Scientologists” (an assertion RJ claims I made about all Scientologists, which I did not). Obviously the people here have seen something that those in the Hole (I use that now as a metaphor for all those still strong DM supporters) cannot. Wouldn’t it be nice to figure out the why behind this?

        ONLY Scientologists (as opposed to critics) have the POSSIBILITY to change the situation within the Church. But the ideas in support of that can come from anywhere, and I hope to be part of that discussion.

      • brendon permalink
        February 5, 2010 6:46 pm


        I’m not here to talk about the Nazis or Marx. Nor am I a clone or a troll; the (continued!) ad hominem is unnecessary and transparent.

        Since you’ve chosen to reframe my comment into a form that is acceptable to you,(albeit much more limited in scope than my original comments) I’ll ask it exactly as you asked it:

        “If the tech supposedly works why were these two individuals [Fowler and McPherson] such obvious failures?”

        If you could expand that to the people in the Hole, I’d find that particularly useful.

      • February 5, 2010 9:34 pm


        I apologize for the rancor.

        Regarding Lisa McPherson and Rex Fowler. The simple reason that they were such case failures is because the tech wasn’t applied correctly in either case.

        There may of been other factors that I suspect in Lisa McPherson’s case but one of the key one’s probably was that she was given a lot of wrong reasons for various things that cause a psychotic break.

        The rundown that was designed to handle this condition was never properly done and she never recovered.

        Also, the should have been hospitalized first before starting the rundown under the care of a physician, even a psychiatrist who used non-invasive treatment.

        Rex Fowler on the other hand, I can only speculate since the details of his case are unknown, unlike Lisa.

        I will say this that people on NOTs are subjected to intense interrogations every six months in violation of HCOBs relating to what is called the “non interference zone”.

        The above could be the possible reason for many cases of cancer that have been occurring in many cases as well.

      • brendon permalink
        February 6, 2010 2:25 am


        Thanks and no worries. I’ve got to run and may reply later, though my reply might be a bit predictable and, as such, may be unecessary 😉

  13. TRUTH permalink
    February 5, 2010 6:33 am

    Bit Bitter & Mary Jo,

    Thank you! You are both correct about this particular OTVIII. BIG time PTSness too! I know him pretty well.

    RJ said it very well “Funny how the criminal mind accuses others of the exact same crimes they themselves commit.” This definitely applies to DM when he is telling his public that the Independents will through out the Sec check if they succeed.

    How stupid DM and his followers are, is unbelievable!

  14. Been There permalink
    February 5, 2010 11:04 am

    This OT VIII recall phenomena is not new. One of the first OT VIIIs (I believe Betty Filisky) completed the level, came home and promptly died of cancer. It was a huge flap and every OT VIII got recalled to the Freewinds for “correction”. There weren’t many of us at the time, but that was hugely expensive and upsetting (for each OT VIII individually). Laura Wolff, the OT VIII CS, was sent to the RPF (and I believe, died herself a few years later). If you knew Laura, you loved her. She was a truly gentle and beautiful soul.

    After that, if you were an OT VIII and got sick you were dragged through the Ethics and Qual wringer. We used to joke about it amongst ourselves that no matter how you felt or what crisis was going on the minute you crossed the threshold at Flag or the Freewinds you put on a happy face and “everything was beautiful” (remember that sugary song, that’s the exact vibe). I think that is why so many OT VII and VIII went on to die of cancer, they were afraid to admit a physical problem might exist and seek medical care early on.

    I can dig why Bredon in the above post thinks we’re a bunch of not-to-bright sheeple. Why did I and so many others re-do (and pay for again) our OT V, VI, VII and VIII not mention our training? Can any of us answer that question? I still can’t, not really. I got out, but why the hell did I stay in, and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for the “privilege”? If I could figure out the answer to that question, I’d REALLY be OT.

    • brendon permalink
      February 5, 2010 7:04 pm

      Been There-

      I think part of the answer from my experienceis that the people I’ve known in Scientology are chock full of good intentions and hope for mankind, and that greater good fuels them in a way that causes them to dismiss the outpoints they see along the way.

      At the same time, Scientology’s framework points any critical thinking inward onto the individual and away from Church and the philosophy.

      I think that’s a potent combination. And for the record, I don’t think it has anything to do with being bright or not.

      • lunamoth permalink
        February 5, 2010 11:07 pm


        I think you have hit two nails squarely on the head.

  15. Dora N. permalink
    February 5, 2010 5:20 pm

    Brendon has valid points. I can’t imagine that the purpose of this site is always agree. Isn’t that what got us in this mess to begin with?

    • lunamoth permalink
      February 5, 2010 11:11 pm


      You make a good point, yourself, Dora N.

      I would add, though, that everyone likes to be addressed with courtesy
      and respect. No one likes to feel attacked, especially by a stranger, or
      on a public forum.

      Misunderstandings are much easier to achieve when communication
      is via a computer screen. All the more reason to simply have good manners
      when talking to each other, don’t you agree?

      • Dora N. permalink
        February 6, 2010 1:05 am

        Yes, I agree with that. I just don’t want this group to become like another one we know where we can’t voice our viewpoints. But you’re right, manners are always important.

      • lunamoth permalink
        February 6, 2010 2:44 am


        Again, you’re right. We’ll have to tolerate occasional rudeness as the price of
        the freedom to speak our mind. I guess that means we don’t fall into the trap of
        being rude in response to rudeness.

        Well, it wouldn’t kill ME to actually practice that a little harder! : )


  16. Jim Logan permalink
    February 5, 2010 5:47 pm

    I’ll add this. From the a viewpoint, one of many possibles, and one on the outside looking in, it could appear a pardox that the subject makes the able more able and those presumed to be practicing the subject are not manifesting much ability. I grant that. I also grant that you are right, those in the ‘Hole’ and around them sure aren’t manifesting the ability to see what is going on.

    There is another factor here, that of Potential Trouble Source and what that means. A person, connected to someone actively suppressing them, making them nothing, invalidating the gains they’ve made, needling them, and doubting their every reality, a real one of the few truly insance Supressive Persons that are about, can cause the loss of gains. It takes some out-ethics toward the SP, and some predisposition to being suppressed, yes, but when one does goe effect, one of the salient discoveries in Scientology is that one will makes gains AND LOSE THEM. That IS PTS.

    So, it may very well be that which you are seeing. They were made more able, and then lost the abilities regained or gained. Potential Trouble Source and the relationship they have with Suppressive Persons are an extremely important part of the evaluation of the ‘Hole’ and it’s cause and circumstance.

    Pooh pooh face. Just kiddin’.

    • brendon permalink
      February 5, 2010 6:19 pm

      Thanks. Your answer is the sort of thing I was hoping for when I alluded to “figuring out the why” in my response to Editor above.

      • brendon permalink
        February 5, 2010 6:49 pm

        I failed to point out that this…

        “Thanks. Your answer is the sort of thing I was hoping for when I alluded to “figuring out the why” in my response to Editor above.”

        …was in response to Jim Logan’s post about PTS. It may not be clear from the way this blog threads.

    • Editor permalink*
      February 5, 2010 7:05 pm

      Jim, sure, PTSness is an explanation. But just to advance the discussion, consider this:

      If any Scientologist can suddenly lose their gains because some SP invalidates them, then one could argue those gains are not very stable. One would think that at some point, a Scientologist would not be the effect of that mechanism. Maybe after OT VII, “Cause over Life”? Maybe after a PTS/SP Course? At what point do you think one becomes immune to the effects of an SP? Or does one ever? And if so, then isn’t the SP the more powerful one?

      One can recognize the mechanics of a phenomenon, but unless one has a way to counter it, then it will still happen. One SP can then wipe out the gains of an OT or the effectiveness of a whole organization. How is that possible?

      I’d be interested in your viewpoint. At what point does one cease being the effect of an SP? Or does one ever? Right now we have the entirety of the Church of Scientology, apparently, held hostage by one SP, in such a way that everyone is cowed and “losing their gains.” So how does that get resolved, and how would one proof up the organization so it cannot reoccur?

      • lunamoth permalink
        February 5, 2010 11:17 pm

        Boy, Editor, that is the million dollar question! And if anyone can answer it, it’s
        Jim Logan. I will be checking back to see his reply.

      • February 5, 2010 11:37 pm

        Rebel, personally I’ve never thought that Miscavige is acting alone and that the little weasel all by himself is causing everyone to go PTS.

        There are also other factors involved. If you look at a C/S 53 you will see at least 150!

        Or the other 125 or so covered on the Expanded GF 40!

        Regarding the OT levels. In my opinion they have been sabotaged. You will notice that the original OT levels are not part of the line up and that NOTs itself in many cases is run endlessly. Probably the reason for this is that the original OT IV and VII are omitted for the line up.

        There are also many references on the Briefing Course that talk about what happens when a state of release is invalidated as well by continuing to audit past it. One particular HCOB Release Rehabilitation Goofs discusses this in detail and various lectures do also.

        Suffice it to say that if you continue to audit past a state of release or erasure you totally invalidate it.

        Not only that but the PC or Pre OT, continues to mock something up and put it there to run!

        Continue to ask someone for an overt that they never committed and the PC or Pre OT will put a false overt there to run. Continue to “run” an engram that has already erased and the PC or Pre OT will mock one up! This is covered in the HCOB ‘Drug, Aspirin and Tranquilizers’ but it can apply to auditing in general.

        This all goes back to Route 1 and ‘Creative Processing’. It all has a lot to do with misownership and incorrectly assigning causes to things, that inhibits the thetan’s ability to as-is things and worse alter-ises the case!

        There is also such a thing as “reverse processing” and “black dianetics” which is currently being applied in the Church these days in lieu of actual processing.

        No you are correct Rebel it’s not just PTSness, though that is a major factor as well but not the only one.

      • Jim Logan permalink
        February 6, 2010 1:09 am

        I’ve been studying recently a great deal about the phenomena of PTS and SP. I’ve got an answer for you on the question. Mind you, I’m not presuming by this to answer for every person that seems to go effect of suppression. Heck, maybe they like to for the randomity. Thetans without banks can do all sorts of things. However, here’s a bit from a tape 8 June 65 Handling the PTS.

        “And I finally realized what I was looking at: the person is never going to make it without being trained.”

        ” The cruelest thing you could possibly do would be to audit somebody through to Clear…Not train him, not have him know anything about being an auditor, not know anything about the bank, not know anything about life, not know anything about himself, not know anything about anything, and you’re going to audit him all the way through to Clear? Now he has this terrific potential to know and you haven’t made it possible for him to assimilate the technology which has brought him to this state. ”

        ” In other words you’re taking- you have to take total responsibility here. You can’t handle something like this lightly. You can go appetite-over-tin-cup if you do”

        I’ve observed myself, in my own life, that the more trained and experienced with that training, the more proofed up against what got me into the mess in the first place I am. Really understanding the mechanics of aberration, like really duplicating and understanding the materials up to about 54 in Creation of Human Ability, and all that led up to that book, has NO subsitute.

        If I had an interview with every person that fell on their head after shooting up to VIII, I’d bet you a wack of seal flippers, I’d find holes, big gaping holes, in the other half of the Bridge. It IS half of the Bridge, and somebody through OT VIII who isn’t a Class VIII fully interned then well, they ain’t are they.

        I’ve experienced a lot more than heavy reg cycles. I don’t go PTS. I don’t rollercoaster. I have made the gains and I have them. They are spectacular. I’M TRAINED. And still, in the past two weeks of restudy of the PTS/SP tech I’ve learned even more. So, this idea of training and experience with the data to gain the hands-on know how and getting versed in the materials is pretty important I’d say.

      • brendon permalink
        February 6, 2010 2:22 am

        Not to complicate the topic, but my anecdotal information is that those DM surrounds himself with rarely have time to make it too far up the Bridge — they work too much. Maybe that’s by design and could be a factor? And what are his training and processing levels anyway?

      • Serious Fellow Traveller permalink
        February 6, 2010 2:53 am

        Mr Jim — Angler, Qual Master for the free world and all round dangerous fellow (when not preoccupied with prehensile toes):

        This relationship of training to OT goes back to ’52 at least. Something about “Education makes the OT” in a lecture preceding the PDC. Anyways, I recall that there was an IG Bulletin of some title that stated the minimum standards essentially for the delivery of a set of as-yet not available services. I try to use vocabulary that non-Scn folk can gen. Came out after the IRS victory in what ’93. You trackin’ me so far? There was one item, sounding pretty stiff, that all who were to avail themselves of the new services were to be trained to Class VI. If my memory serves. So where is all this goin’? Well, based on what you say, that *was* the correct plan. What happened? Need I ask?

      • John Doe permalink
        February 6, 2010 4:30 am

        Here is my answer to that, Rebel:

        For years, I’d learned to sort of absorb outpoints I’d seen in the church, explaining them to myself, etc. By outpoints, I mean those instances when the tech, or Scientology appeared to fail, or church members behaved poorly, etc. etc. From what I’ve been reading on this and other blogs, I’m not alone in this “ability”.:-)

        Over the years, when I’d encounter some sort of challenge or criticism about Scientology, either from a person or TV show, or whatever, I’d get all pumped with adrenalin, and over-react. I knew I was hyper-sensitive about it.

        Well, react is the operative word here. The criticism or passing 1.1 remark restimulated all that not-isness of those outpoints, the accumulated instances of the apparent or actual failures of the tech. It was the whole burden of that that I was fighting, not just the criticism encountered in PT. And because these accumulated outpoints were my own observations, my “little voice”, that I’d suppressed, it wouldn’t as-is. The “being effect of criticism somatic”, so to speak, was a ridging against possible truth in the criticism.

        Talk about snarling things up!

        A re-ordering of my stable data is what resolved this. An admission to myself that there is room for improvement in the church of scientology and even in how the tech itself is applied. Not fighting the outpoints, or trying to absorb them, but just acknowledging them and working to improve things, however gradiently.

        While this quite beneficial process began for me a few years back, your blog and Marty’s and Scn-cult, and other rational blogs, plus all those commenting, have been tremendously helpful in accelerating and consolidating my return to integrity. And to a remarkable resurgence of tone level, and optimism to boot. And from what I read, I am not alone in that either!

        So how can one SP shut down one’s whole gains? They don’t. Only you can do that. How do you proof yourself against this? By being honest and seeking the truth, even if your stable data get shaken up a bit. If you keep trying, you can formulate more workable ones.

        Ultimately, Jim Logan is quite correct. The more training you have, the more understanding and tools you possess to sort all this out.

      • February 6, 2010 8:28 am

        Serious Fellow Traveller,

        I believe it was an IMB (International Management Bulletin) issued after the IRS “Victory” giving the impossible goals of all PreOTs trained either to Class VI or Grad V and specialist courses and all Orgs St. Hill sized before releasing OT IX.

        Like the song ‘To Dream the Impossible Dream’ like the other Chairman of the Board used to sing those goals pretty much violated the HCOPL ‘OT Orgs’.

        For instance back in ’65 the Ol’man made it a requirement that before someone could do R6ew they had to have done the Briefing Course but he had to relent because of the old maxim that “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”.

        Obviously the smart thing for a thetan to do is to get trained but he found that even at high levels some thetans actually protested doing the smart thing and it seemed that remaining ignorant was probably a self determined effort. Thus he introduced the Solo Auditors Course so that he could train an auditor who could audit R6 without killing himself.

        Go figure!

        So from that point on Auditor training had always been “highly recommended” but not mandatory.

        Now management in their typical totalitarian style were trying to make training mandatory, which like “fair game” and “disconnection”, “seemed like a good idea at the time”, but eventually proved out to be a bad idea (like having someone robotically do a whole bunch of squirrelly drills and call that person an auditor).

        I guess to some thetans “ignorance is bliss” or something like that or whatever, besides according to policy you can’t order someone to be trained or processed. I know a policy that is continually violated by the “uber menchen” management team who now run the orgs, but Ron had an idea that I share and that is that Scientology is based on self determinism and you really can’t force someone to be pandetermined.

        So forcing everyone to get trained was just a bad idea and doomed to failure.

        Getting trained because it is the right thing to do. Good!

        Forcing someone to get trained over their power of choice and self determinism. Very bad!

        Now about making every frickin’ Org Saint Hill size!

        Talk about ‘Impossible Dream’! The fact is no matter how standard policy is at management level there is always going to be some struggling org out in Keokuk somewhere that is never close to St. Hill size. The nature of the beast as new orgs get formed. It’s like wack-a-mole!

        Not that the “Impossible Dream” was bad enough but shorty entered the fray and introduced concept “Ideal Orgs” (empty edifices that look nice) and “Golden Age of (Robo)Tech” (“auditors” drilled to deception that they can audit). So now instead of going for an actual product that is nigh unachievable the target now is an overt product that is nigh unachievable.

        Any way, I hope within that rant is the answer to your question Serious Fellow Traveller.

      • Jim Logan permalink
        February 6, 2010 4:52 pm

        On the thread here, trying to sort of cover each of the points of brendon, SFT, and RJ, there is the factor that RJ points up – this is all based on self-determinism to get the route, both sides, fully. There are NO guarantees in this and the heights to be attained are to be climbed by the person themselves.

        The thread started as a question on how those in the ‘Hole’ could end up such adverse effect. What I proffered as one reason, among many and for each individual it would have to be established, is the idea summed in; when one has the tech and know-how of an area he won’t be adverse effect of it. Thus, the ‘other side’ of the Bridge.

      • Jim Logan permalink
        February 7, 2010 4:57 pm

        Continuing the theme of prehensile, (the ‘Serious’ Fellow Traveller’s offered def that is, a quote:
        “”The trouble with OTs in the past has only been lack of cooperation and commonly
        agreed upon objective. Without these OTs eventually fall prey again to smaller
        beings with bigger organization skill. OT is an unstable state only when OTs are
        not cooperating with OTs but each one going his own way in the strong but
        fatuous believe he can single-handedly survive. The proof is, OTs have not
        survived as OTs whenever this super individuation collided with the super
        organization of weaker beings. The answer is to remain organized, mutual
        assistance and integrity and not lose touch with or responsibility for all
        levels of life forms and societies.” HCOB 25 June 63

      • Ex-RPFer permalink
        February 7, 2010 7:30 pm

        Dear Editor,
        I think that is the question that has plagued many a Scientologist for some time.
        If you do the PTS/SP course, get trained and go OT then you should be cause and take responsibility for your actions or lack there of.
        But there is a kink in even that simplistic view. Guess what? You are still in a body on Earth. You can’t possibly be full OT unless you somehow have figured out how to do it without the universe.
        So I guess getting bumped and bruised and sick is just part of being here. You can either work at making the best of it or you can whine and be “PTS” and blame other people.

        Personally I think people disregard the fact that they are HUMAN. Bodies are susceptible to many different things. Some are predisposed to heart disease and diabetes. Some are genetically engineered to be strong and fast. Just because you are “OT” or a “Big Being” doesn’t mean that your body isn’t going to fall apart. It is sorta like a car. You could buy the most expensive and best built car, but there is still a chance that when they were putting it together that someone on the assembly line missed a rivet somewhere and it could break. Plus just because it is the best car doesn’t mean you aren’t going to get in an accident and wreck it.

        No one is going to do the Bridge and become Superman and be impervious to everything. But even he had Kryptonite.
        Hey LRH says, “Even hero’s can have lice.”
        So stop searching for this state. It is unattainable.
        It IS possible to be happy and to be successful and to live a good life. Shoot for that. Help others. Be good to each other. Breath. LOVE!

      • February 10, 2010 6:09 pm

        The simplicity is: agreement. We are proof against suppression when we can observe, make our own decisions and agree or disagree as we judge fit. Scientology, unfortunately, teaches agreement. Agreement with the materials, with LRH. Any more, disagreement is met with ethics. But, that’s not how you make an OT. That’s not how you become knowing cause. I’m proud of you for allowing disagreement. Learning is about disagreeing as much as agreeing. Agreement is going into mutual motion with the consideration, postulate, opinion, intention or condition. Fanaticism is getting trapped in that mutual motion (a condition of many currently in the COS.) All the out ruds in life (which make suppression possible) all seem to trace back to the persistence of later postulates that disagree with an earlier postulate to agree (go into mutual motion.) Pretty simple. Correction forms in auditing spotlight exact points in the complexity of aberration. Becoming an operating thetan is pinpointing the simplicities that allow us to understand all the complexities. Elementary my dear Watson.

    • lunamoth permalink
      February 5, 2010 11:13 pm


      • Serious Fellow Traveller permalink
        February 6, 2010 11:38 pm

        RJ — Quite the comprehensive diatribe. More than I asked for — exchange in abundance! Mucho Gracias. With what prehensile Jim was offering as rationale, backed by “Your Post and Life” makes total sense. We are self determined in keeping or not our personal integrity and code of honor.

        prehensile def 2: able to perceive quickly; having keen mental grasp.


        And sorry about that serious in my title — carry over from a post on Marty’s. Y’all knew that.

  17. lunamoth permalink
    February 5, 2010 11:14 pm

    (sorry, my “aim” was off with that last post – it was in response to “pooh pooh face”- I have a very childish sense of humor)

    • Jim Logan permalink
      February 6, 2010 1:12 am

      Ah, yes, and a prehensile toe 🙂

      • lunamoth permalink
        February 6, 2010 3:22 am


        …which explains my silly walk… (and the reference for THAT is M. Python, Esq.)

  18. Rebecca-Tribecca permalink
    February 6, 2010 6:48 am

    I have an OT 8 friend who had previously been recalled to “Freewinds” paying each time to re-do the new and latest version of OT 8. (3x)
    This person has had all 3 Ls in FSO at a cost of $100,000 including L repairs over and over.

    Now has been told they are not Clear so this person must re-do Bridge from scratch at their expense.

    Note that this Bridge was done by DM’s “GOLDEN AGE OF TECH” trained auditors and CSes at Flag at “Freewinds”

    SO ~~It is not just the books that must be repurchased over and over but the entire Bridge as well.

    Any business that sells a product that is flawed takes responsibility and fixes it on their expense. Note recent Toyota recall.

    In this “Church” you pay over and over and over even when their own tech terminals take you up to OT 8 and then say they did not realize you were not CLEAR all along, and now you have to re-do it all at own expense.

    • Jim Logan permalink
      February 7, 2010 4:55 pm

      Well, this sort of suppressive out-tech is a perfect example of in the presence of suppression one will make mistakes. Here’s a bit from CS Series 57. “Also, if the Tech-Qual administrative set-up is nonextant or a confused mess, the errors in folders and various upsets react suppressively both on the C/S and auditors and they—both C/S and auditors—make mistakes.”

      Now if the above is true on the admin lines, errors in folders and ‘various upsets’, imagine what it would be like in the presence of a No Gain Case, uninterned Class IV, failed exec SP. In that case, you have these sorts of technical atrocities.

    • February 8, 2010 7:52 pm

      Did that happen recently ?

      • Rebecca-Tribecca permalink
        February 10, 2010 6:53 am

        LO ~~

        The OT8 who had previously paid Freewinds 3x to do OT8 in 3 different versions, was diagnosed as NOT Clear a year ago.
        The next reg cycle was to purchase a Tech Estimate of 150 hours of NED (Dianetics)
        However, they have to pay high dollars because “only an OT 8 auditor” can audit them and apparently this is a different level of pricing than if you buy NED or grades and get a lower level auditor.
        You are now trapped to pay OT8 auditor level rates for NED !
        NEW OT 8 EP = I now know who I am not, I now know that I am not OT 8 and I am ready to see the REG to pay for NED at OT8 level rates.
        LOL ::::))))))

  19. Darla permalink
    February 6, 2010 7:22 pm

    You are so right. If one looks at earlier parts of this whole continuing story, your TR2 above of “you have to be trained” sheds some light on why Debbie Cook did not participate in the shellacking of her partners in the hole: she is trained: to CL IX and FEBC.

    Did she go PTS to “it” to the point of participating in suppressing others? NO.

    Did she get the hell out of there? YES.

    Any of these souls so incarcerated could do the same as Debbie. These guys are still there because they do not know there is freedom out here. They thnk there will only be freedom when they “graduate” the hole.

    Unfortunately, they are compromising their integrity and are so restimulated, they are unable to act.


  20. espritfree permalink
    February 7, 2010 3:50 am

    The Real Third Party by Mike Rinder

  21. Rebecca-Tribecca permalink
    February 7, 2010 11:54 pm

    Thank you Jim, well received.


    I am sure Debbie Cook has many fine points. I read Marty’s blog.
    However it is imply not true that she did not suppress others.
    She was in DM’s valence.

    I have relatives who are Flag staff, one has blown.
    Debbie would scream repeatedly at FSO staff that if they ever routed out ~~ they would never this lifetime be allowed back at the Flag Land Base.

    This meant their “OT” bridge would be cut off as OT 6 and 7 is delivered only in FSO.

    This repeated threat from her stopped staff leaving.
    Debbie invented this threat ~~ there is no LRH policy that says you are cut off Bridge for leaving standardly.

    This “Church” does everything to hold you against your will, incarcerate you for up to a year on “Route out lines” and if you blow, there is “Blow Drill” to capture you back as if you were a fugitive and they were US Marshalls.

  22. Darla permalink
    February 8, 2010 5:48 pm

    No argument that “that church” does everything it can to hold you against your will. Yeah, Debbie toed the party line, but the Int Base took spiritual and physical abuse to a whole new level.
    My point is that Debbie drew the line.

  23. February 10, 2010 8:56 pm

    Google is your friend indeed

  24. 2ndxr permalink
    February 10, 2010 10:32 pm

    The mechanics of a lot of the trouble we get into with PTSness revolve around the mechanics of Reach and Withdraw.

    Just as a child that reaches to the hot stove, gets burned, then withdraws and gets careful about hot stoves (flow zero overt, danger condition applied), so too has the thetan gotten careful over its existence.

    When we withdraw we shrink our space a bit. If we have the tech to as-is the event that caused us to shrink (withdraw), our space will again expand. If we don’t have the tech to as-is, our space gets smaller with each ‘burn’ we encounter. After a lot of withdrawals… well,… here we are.

    Maybe we get smart enough to use a via to pick up the hot object. Some people would use a hot-mitt, some might order someone less witting to pick up the object for them – then berate them for their overt of doing it.

    Sec checks, properly done, are great for restoring reach. The overts are what they are (didn’t read the manual on handling the stove, didn’t know one existed, etc.) and should be viewed for the case improvement of the person, only. When they are perverted into a control means (blackmail) they will invert the reach. This is what DM will minimally try to do on the ship with the 8’s. Of course, it may also go beyond this to getting them to invent overts so as to further invert the OT.

    The mechanics of the effect of the invented overt and forced confession have been well recognized in the past and have been used by many political factions and state organs (such as North Korea and the KGB to name but two.) A brilliant portrayal of this is shown in the movie ‘1984’ based on Orwell’s famous novel. (The parallels between the actions alleged at Int and the actions portrayed in this movie are staggering. A highly recommended movie for Scn’s.)

    LRH gave us the tech to undo the effects of a ‘1984’ style of brainwashing. There is a place for the PDH check. There is also other charge associated with being subjugated to any inhuman condition. Much of this is summarized, as RJ pointed out, in CS53 and GF40X.

    Any proper handling comes down to as-ising the condition.

    In addition, understanding the mechanism of reach and withdraw can proof one up against further attempts to shrink one’s reach: overts will always occur in new situations, so recognizing what one’s own overt was (at the time it is committed), as-ising it and instantly applying Danger should keep one’s reach out there. (Of course, there can be the bypass of an earlier overt that can also cause a twinge until it is viewed, but knowing that mechanism and spotting just the fact of the existence of the BPC can destimulate it, too.)

    The tech will protect you – when it is understood and used.

  25. mina bobi permalink
    March 27, 2010 3:02 pm

    I have an ot8 friend he was looking at the internet, somebody reported him to the maa, he was ordered to go to LA to see the freewinds maa he went, then he was ordered to go to flag to do Maa cycle he did so, then he was told if he does not pay 3 intensives and go to freewinds he will be declare.
    So he payed and went to freewinds to get “fixed”.
    He is there now.



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